Mindflame

Palin's First 100 Days

2009-05-18T00:11:00.002-05:00

This is a great evaluation of her many missteps.

Mocking the Tea Party Protests

2009-04-30T09:12:00.002-05:00

Chances are you saw the CNN reporter and the tea party protest. To my shock Obama mocked the people all over the country for daring to challenge his his policies. This is just more of Obama's guns and relgion comments.

Google Holidays

2009-04-22T16:22:00.005-05:00

I noticed that today Google had a special page in celebration of Earth Day. Google celebrates with a special logo for every holiday from Darwin's Birthday to Monet's. But on Easter the central holiday of the world's largest religion was not considered worthy of celebration.

I guess in this religion-phobic world it is a pretty venial thing. Especially, when you realize that Google is doing the heavy lifting of totalitarian censorship for China. Maybe Easter was just was not communist friendly enough.

I guess you could argue that Google is learning that when you are big you go with the lesser of two evils. There of course have been the questions of privacy from this company who records everything from tool bar searches to photographs of your neighborhood. Google map's street level maps of, well everything, have caused some worry not just to local populations but also police.

Don't Be Evil?

Don't be naive.

He Is Risen! Hallelujah!

2009-04-12T14:42:00.001-05:00

I am celebrating the victory of the Living Lord over death. I wish you all a beautiful Resurrection Sunday.

Good Friday

2009-04-10T07:52:00.001-05:00

Today we are remembering the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross.

Verse of the Week 3/10

2009-03-12T08:36:00.001-05:00

The LORD is my strength and song, and he is become my salvation: he is my God, and I will prepare him a habitation; my father’s God, and I will exalt him. Exodus 15:2

Obama's Plan

2009-03-06T16:15:00.002-05:00

You can always count on The Onion to give us the news straight.

Scaling The God Delusion

2009-03-02T10:15:00.001-05:00

Here is an excellent serious on Richard Dawkin's God Delusion. By the Apologist Veritas.

A Debate

2008-10-18T23:12:00.002-05:00

Please watch this debate I feel it shows a strong defense of Christian historicity.

Debate 2 from atheist debate on Vimeo.

I actually, got this wonderful debate from a website called "The Intelligent Zone" which is either a very irrational defense of atheism or some sort of parity of the New Atheist Movement.

End of Plague

2008-09-29T13:12:00.001-05:00

I have ended my debate with the Next Turn on the topic of plague. He has pretty much given up and I hope to speak with him about other topics in the future.

Only Prayer

2008-08-23T21:30:00.003-05:00

TheNextTurn sent me the following email. He is trying to limit the debate to prayer and not religious practice. I feel like when push come to shove he has begun to agree with my main point (which is good). Also, I feel like he has been acting like an adult so he has won my respect.

HI Poetsong,

I think I found why we seem to be talking past each other.

"To clarify our argument was "Did religious practice contribute the suffering during the plague or was it a help?”" but then I protested that we should only look and Christian religious practice and you did not have problem with that."

You see I was under the assumption that we are debating if prayer and repentance specifically helped or hurt the effort to defeat/stop the black plague.

We better clarify this before we continue.

If the debate is did religious practice as a whole help or hurt during the plague I would say it both helped and hurt depending on the specific situation but I would certainly say it would have been way worse if religion was not there and there was nothing to replace it

TheNextTurn

Here was my reply.

Hi TheNextTurn

I think it will be really difficult have any meaningful debate about just prayer and repentance as a method of combating the Black Plague for a couple reasons.

1) You come into this, disqualifying any possibility of miraculous mercy from God, which I think very possible. Any debate we have will really be about this and I don’t believe either of us will be able to prove our positions.
2) The context of this topic is going to be really Catholic and with the Catholics (and some Protestants) there is not always a sharp distinction between things like worship, repentance, and prayer. Prayer can be an action.

Repentance has to be an action, it can be things like talking to a priest or going on pilgrimage (which would seem unhelpful) but it can also be caring for the poor and giving back stolen things (which you would find helpful).

3) There is no real alternative except things we will both have to make up, prayer and spirituality have always been part of human society. There is no “control set” as it were.

Also, in general our disagreement is really starting to be the point of me being a Christian and you being an atheist. We might be well served to move on to another topic.

Peace

Angela

Plague: Other Arguments Answered

2008-08-20T21:20:00.002-05:00

He said {“I don’t know how this is suggestive that people might have been better off if Europe had not had religious beliefs. “
You keep saying that I am suggesting that people were better off without religion. That is a completely different argument and I am not arguing it here. I am saying prayer itself did nothing to find a cure to the disease and those prayers did nothing. Other prayers asking for strength to survive this plague certainly would have helped people.}

I don’t understand, that sounds circular: prayer did not help because prayer does not help. I have all our conversation on my blog and our topic was the role of the Christian religion, which you felt made things worse.

He said {“Finally, spiritual needs of the people, while you don’t consider it real, was very urgent to the people at the time and it is an articulated need of most of humanity to this day. It was in this area that the people felt most cheated.”
No I think spiritual needs are real.}

I am glad to hear it.

He said {“Even in early Middle Ages before the plague there was a wide market in anti- rodent remedies (Kelly 65).”
Its too bad they didn’t investigate this as a possible solution, unfortunately it was much later when people realized that rodents are notorious for spread disease. Now that’s a secular idea that should have been investigated.}

It would not have helped, more cleanliness would have helped but the people knew that. People were doing their best to control rats, obviously they could not.

You said {“Why didn’t God clearly explain germ theory, or explain the dangers of letting the rodent population get out of hand?”}

Look this is a what is called “begging the question”. You are saying if there was really a God, He would have had to tell people about Germ Theory and since we were not taught germ theory there is no God. However, there could just as easily be a God that did not teach us germ theory.

Here is an example:

Tommy: My dad is a jet fighter pilot
Bill: Have you ever been up in a plane?
Tommy: No.
Bill: Well, if you Dad were really a jet fighter pilot he would have taken you up in a plane.

He said {Why did God only provide help which was already obvious to people, such as cleanliness?
“It was not oblivious. It is only oblivious to you since you were raised in a society where this was common knowledge.”
Obvious may be too strong of a word I would say that the effects of an unclean situation were within the grasp of the average person, since unclean situations provide sensory information.
Your eyes can see how disgusting bodies are when they rot.
Your nose will smell the awful smell when an unclean situation arises.
You hands can feel the dirtiness, sliminess etc.}

This is more of the same argument that I rejected above. Your questions about what God should have done don’t really show anything. However, would like to point out that you are right we do find filth naturally repulsive but there are more and less effective ways of dealing with this. Galin for example suggested smelling flowers and burning fires to cover up bad smells. I would consider this an unhelpful answer.

He said {In the end I would say that secular and divine did happen, I have changed my mind to the frequency of the secular causes. But every prayer to God asking him to stop the plague or provide a solution to it was just as mush of a waste as Astrological investigations.
Do you think these specific events were a waist of time?}

Your question assumes that prayer is never in and of itself helpful which I (like most people) disagree with you about. However, I have endeavored to show that people prayed in addition to and not instead of taking action. Christianity does not teach people not to take actions but to pray and take independent action, as I show Biblical quotes to prove. They would have been better off avoiding Galin based medicine anyway even if they took no action but prayer.

Astrology was a scientific dead end so was the alchemy and magical thinking the Christians were struggling to suppress. Only when these died could European minds start making their strongest advances. But even Astrology has to thank the Christians for their intellectual tools such as writing, numbers, as well as Greek, Roman and Arab sciences.

It would not be until the monk Mendel made his famous experiments with beans that we would get the foundation for the biology necessary to create the antibiotics which to this day remain the only helpful treatment for this disease.

The only other tool against this disease is a religiously derived on…..Quarantine. Which is still the a major strategy used to combat this disease today.

He said {1..“Since religion dominated life in seventeenth-century Italy, prayer was naturally an important weapon against the plague. When the plague worsened in Florence during the summer of 1633, an order came from the Commissioner of Health requiring nuns to pray continuously for the next 40 days for divine.”
13. “Flagellants, religious fanatics of 13th-century Europe who proclaimed the imminence of the wrath of God against corruption and, as a religious rite, practiced public, self-inflicted scourging. The sect arose in Perugia, in central Italy, in 1259-60 and is said to have numbered 10,000.”
15. In 1348, Pope Clement VI led a pilgrimage to Rome for mass prayers to appease God. However, over 90% of the pilgrims fell prey to the very plague that they had tried to prevent.}

Would these uneducated nuns have developed antibiotics? The Flagellants are heretics and many of their teachings were pagan. Would these traumatize people have been inventing the scientific method of prayer were taken away from them?

He said “Considering my other sources that says repentance was used as the main weapon against the plague also shows that a lot of time waited asking or hoping God would provide the answers. This time could have been used to figure out what natural causes spread the plague or least developing a method to figure out the unknown.”

I think that it should be clear that people would not have been looking for a scientific answer if prayer was unavailable. Fatalism and not inquiry marked the unbelievers at this time. Astrology taught nothing but fate and a wild mysterious universe that can not be known. The science of the time had failed these people and instead they were seeking God’s help for this life and the next one.

The Bible offered hope of a knowable universe that could be investigated and had rational natural laws as well as reveled spiritual ones.

These spiritual warnings in Amos could have prevented this plague and repenting (changing behavior) might have limited the recursions of the disease. This was possible not by quick medical answers but by people using their existing medical knowledge to protect the poor from unhealthy conditions.

Take Care,

Poetsong

Plague Practices

2008-08-12T21:23:00.002-05:00

Hello,

I hope you are doing well.

I sort of lost track. I want to answer your objections but we need to clean this up a little. Feel free to ask specific questions and as long as they are logical I will try to get you some answers.

One big problem we are having is that I don’t really know what you mean by secular. Do you mean not done by religious people? Do you mean fully scientific and modern? Well, of course, they were not that.

You said that the scientific method was common since and I think it important that it is not. Nether is formal logic. Both are human inventions that have evolved over long periods of time. The Greeks had developed formal logic but a lot of what we call “fallacies” were good logic back then. The scientific method in Greek times was observe and conclude. By the time period we talk about it was Observe, read what other haves said (frequently Galen) and Conclude. You are right that the Medieval People needed to lose some of their faith but the faith they needed to lose was faith in Greek and Roman knowledge.
Here is a source.

You also brought up our original argument I am looking through my notes and we were arguing about was whether the Christian religion made the Bubonic Plague worse.

Here is a quick summery:

You were arguing that people who believed in God do not have an incentive to conduct rational investigation but you concede that some did go on but it was not the norm. However, I feel that all the investigations that were done were done because of religious foundation and motivation. There was no secular investigations aside from magic and astrology.

I made a philosophical argument to show that following the theology of Aquinas would have conducted rational investigations and would believe it religious to do so.

I argued that by contrast atheist might give up instead of working for answer.

Practices

You seem to be asking me to show that effective religious based scientific solutions were the norm but if that was the case than the Bubonic plague would not have been such a problem. I am saying that all available solutions were religiously based and if it had not been for religious thinking it would have been much worse. There would not have been hospitals or even doctors (as useless as they were) and even the basic practice of quarantine would not have been available.

An Argument in Practices
“Secular” investigations were done alongside prayer and fasting and was mostly conducted by the RCC itself.
Just stating this and showing that this information was available at the time does not prove what so ever that these were concepts actually followed. Please provide sources that indicate that this did happen on a large scale, or that “secular” investigation was conducted right along with divine ones. Opportunity and availability alone does not indicate action.

Why should it have had to happen on a large scale if the religious people are the only ones doing it. The largest medical library in Europe was in the Vatican ( I already gave a source). Every University in Europe was founded by the RCC. The only scholarly work done by anyone besides this was astrology. Even the people doing astrology had learned to read and write from religious instruction.

What action should they have been taking? They can not be expected to be fully scientific and you are not showing that they would some how have been better off if they were less religious.

“Some of my better sources in showing that the Devine vs. Natural dichotomy did not exist were in fact your sources. Such as your http://galileo.rice.edu/fam/bub

Do you have sources indicating that the RCC (or other groups) investigated this way?

Rational investigation was their standard policy because of the philosophy of Aquinas as we have discussed. But here quick overview. Remember there was no non-religious investigations going on and the “scientific method” had not been invented yet.

*) The Largest medical library was in the Vatican.
*) All Universities were religiously founded.
*) “The Catholic Church played a large role in development as well as management of medieval medicine.”
Maggie. "Education." Medieval Medicine. (Dec. 15, 2000).
*)The Great Morality, has a list of common failed experiments used by the people.
*) I have given a number of source on quarantine the only action that we have talked about that the people then had and worked.

To give you an idea of how much science came from the religious community I am going to quote a book written by someone not educated in social sciences or history (but educated in other unrelated areas). I know that I told you not to quote people who aren’t talking about their areas of expertise but I hope you will forgive me for quoting Dawkins The God Delusion.

“Mendel, of course, was a religious man, an Augustinian monk; but that was in the nineteenth century, when becoming a monk was the easiest way for young Mendel to pursue his science. For him it was the equivalent of a research grant.”

While I take objection to Dawkins belief that Mendel was some how not a real Christian he makes a point I have been meaning to make, that the Christians, Catholic and Protestant were the ones conducting the research of the Medieval and in Enlightenment periods. Dawkins, has every reason to present Christianity as dumb but he admits that the joining the RCC was like getting a research grant, they were the ones doing the scientific investigation.

Do you have sources that indicate this type of thinking/action was with the general mind set of the people during that time?

Actually, it was not the general mindset of the people at the time. Christianity had not spread to all of Europe and philosophies like Aquinas were only understood in educated circles. However, learned people would have been taught to expect a rational universe and to investigate with in it. The only real exception would be pagans and those who believed in astrology. The religious people were pushing the idea of a rational universe in a place where it was not the norm.

You seem to be a materialist I want you to remember that materialism is based in part on this Christian theology of a rational universe (though many materialist reject the idea of God). There is no reason to believe that if there had not been Christianity in Europe these people would have been materialist, in fact it is rather unlikely since Roman Astrology and Paganism are the only other philosophies we see there at the time.

I suppose that that if you place a modern materialist back in this time they would have believed Galen since he represented the best science of the time. Galen’s science was really science (though he used what we now call fallacies and did make many mistakes) it was much better than barbarian wisdom and a honest materialist would have clung to this and in doing so would have been wrong.

However, medieval people were practical and writings saying that that Galen’s science failed is almost as common as those saying that people prayed. They don’t mind saying that Galen did not work nor did any of the random experiments that were going on.

Another source of yours that was really helpful was http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G1-56061943.html. It shows people investigating within the Christian perspective.
Can you quote the statements that indicate this?

The article says that they the could not think past their perspective (thinking that there would always be sickness) but that they thought within it (how to deal with sickness. Better still this source talks about them using church knowledge.

“Untroubled by theological dilemmas, Christian writers were free to concentrate their energies on preventive stratagems.” (172)
Does this source say at what scale these attempted cures took place?
It seems to be a single incident source but I really can’t tell.

No, it is a general statement followed by an extensive list of things commonly attempted during the time period. It is not as if this book is unavailable to you I picked this one because it is on Google books.

I have another source that has several pages talking about these attempts: The Black Death by Corzine Philips but I figured you might not have a copy.

I agree “Paris Consilium” was not helpful and was a start to non-divine solutions but this type of investigation still relied on faith that the Stars and planets actually affected this world, not the alternative I would suggest.

There was no “faith” in medieval astrology except faith in Greek and Roman science. At that time astrology was considered science the modern distinction between astrology and astronomy had not developed yet. This was the most scientific non-Christian thing Europe had.

I hope to email you with the argument of alternatives in the next few days.

Take Care.

Newest Answer

2008-07-25T21:47:00.003-05:00

Hello,

I hope you are well. I am really busy at work so I am going to give you my answer in little pieces.

To clarify our argument was "Did religious practice contribute the suffering during the plague or was it a help?”" but then I protested that we should only look and Christian religious practice and you did not have problem with that at the time.

“appeasement”
If you disagree with the word appeasement thats fine, I just used appeasement to represent prayer, repentance, and preparation for Armageddon. Maybe you know a better term to use to represent these concepts.

It would be better if you said prayer and repentance. As for preparation for Armageddon (you mean end of the world, I guess), I think even atheists thought the world was ending.

The world certainly was falling apart having 60% of the population dead from plague is enough to make everyone think that the world is ending. Christians had the benefit of particular expectations and when they did not materialize they understood this was just a plague. The Discovery channel did a documentary on the plague (called The Black Death) and while they were critical of the Catholic church for not challenging Galen’s theories they also pointed out that the religious beliefs of the people helped them deal in the wake of the plague.

I argued that philosophically that there was no reason for secular minded people of the time not to just give up (many actually did) and had plague parties. Do you have any reason the people would not give up upon discovery that the best science of the time was worthless (which if you like I can show)?

An Argument of Philosophy
“Bible verses showing that people were to looking for material as well as spiritual answers”, “Ultimate and Proximal causes”, “theology of Aquinas”
“Thus far you have disputed none of these points.”

I believe I did comment on this point, but I did not dispute them.
I do believe many people investigated proximal causes including cleanliness that is promoted in the Bible.
The issue I raised tries to address what was the most common type of investigation, secular or Divine.

I still don’t know what you mean by secular. I feel like we are talking past each other. Do you mean fully modern and scientific? Well, of course that was not common and would not have been either way. The only scientific thinking going was being pushed by religious people. All the non-religious thinking going on was magical in nature. Your idea of secular thought comes from the Christian notion of a clock-work universe and the philosophy of Aquinas. It seems to me that you are asking me to prove that the people were scientific more than they were religious which is not the case and is a unrealistic thing to expect. Just because I can’t show that “secular” was not more common than religious does not mean that religious thought inhibited practical solutions.

I guess you could argue that the old Roman thinking was scientific and 'secular' but the religious people did not have any problems with Roman and Greek science and besides the main problem these people had is that Greek and Roman science was wrong and based on primitive thinking that was used before developments in logical fallacies and scientific method had reach our modern level.

You should be showing me practical actions these people could have taken that religion prevented. And even that only holds true only under your assumption that prayer was not helpful in any really way and if we disregard the material help of the RCC and people's spiritual needs.

There was no philosophic reason to prohibit Christians from seeking scientific causes. In fact, exploring creation was mandated by important Christian philosophers. At this time all the major advances in science had been made by the Church or brought to the people through the RCC’s translations of documents.

Was there any meaningful intellectual thought coming from somewhere else in this time in Europe? Do we have any reason to believe that there would have been intellectual developments similar to those needed in the combat this same disease today?

Philosophy of Death

2008-06-18T20:51:00.003-05:00

Here reply to The Next Turn in our argument on the role of Christianity in the Black Plague.

Hello,

I tried to be more succinct this time. If you need more information on a topic ask. Before we start I want set you straight the religious actions you sited were not likely to have been thought of as appeasement. Generally, in Christian thought prayer is seen as pleading or penitence even though the theological development of the early middle ages was primitive they likely would have had a more nuanced view of their actions than you are portraying.

An Argument of Philosophy
I have answered your philosophical argument that Christianity is opposed to looking for material answers to problems. I demonstrated Bible verses showing that people were to looking for material as well as spiritual answers to their problems. I spoke about how Ultimate and Proximal causes are a way in which Christians who believe that the God is the ultimate source of all things investigate other causes. Finally, I talked about how the theology of Aquinas was the driving force of the literacy and investigations of the Medieval Period. Thus far you have disputed none of these points.

I went further by suggesting both the wild parties and unproductive feelings of hopelessness that were common in the time could have been a natural out pouring of ideas such as Epicureanism. You did not comment on this.

An Argument in Practices
You have asked for examples of “secular” reasoning besides the health ordinances of Pistoia but I don’t feel that the health measures of Pistoia were in sharp contrast to the prayer for which you offered more links. I feel like you are asking me to offer evidence that there were more “secular” (whatever that means) rather than spiritual investigations by showing more sources but this is a clear representation of how it was. This concept of “secular” vs. “spiritual” or yours and would not have been shared by medieval people. “Secular” investigations were done alongside prayer and fasting and was mostly conducted by the RCC itself. There is no evidence that other investigations were considered alternative explanations to God having caused the plague except, of course, astrology which the RCC condemned.

Some of my better sources in showing that the Devine vs. Natural dichotomy did not exist were in fact your sources. Such as your Galileo source. To show how false dichotomy it is the nun proscribes prayer and medicine you can see she advises him to take the remedies known to the people of the time. This nun who your source describes as “extreme” is actually carrying out ‘secular science’ by experimenting with herbal remedies.

This same source is also interesting in that it expresses that quarantines were used in places other than Pistoia. You will likely say that these quarantines were later development but progress is as consistent with a religious worldview as with secular one. But in cause you still doubt that quarantine was common place The Great Mortality John Kelly page 289 states that Florence and Venice both had quarantine and Florence created the plague house all within years of the first outbreak meaning investigation were cared out right away.

Another source of yours that was really helpful was this . It shows people investigating within the Christian perspective.

In The Great Morality by John Kelly makes a more emphatic statement about how the Christian perspective allowed for thought about dealing with the plague than I can.

“Untroubled by theological dilemmas, Christian writers were free to concentrate their energies on preventive stratagems.” (172) Then he goes on to talk about the attempts at cures they used. You will likely be critical of these cures which were based on trail and error and faulty Greek science but they were common, extensive and went beyond praying.

There was at least one truly secular investigation (it would have been disapproved of by the Catholic Church) and that was the Paris Consilium which rejected the notion that the plague was influenced by God and came to the conclusion that it was caused by the alignment of the planets. I prepared to show any number of sources that this was the most common notion of people who rejected the concept of God as an influencer of events.

You will likely argue that the Paris Consilium was bad science but the flagellants were bad Christianity. Also, the Paris Consilium is important because it is an example of people doing exactly what you thought they should do putting away the notion of God as a ultimate cause and doing an investigation. But the Paris Consilium was not helpful.

It may surprise you learn that Europe’s largest collection of medical texts was the Vatican and that RCC occasionally allowed human dissections which were never allowed in more secular Rome.

Secular causes were thought of with religious minds and cures you would consider “secular” were implemented with a religious understanding. For example ships arriving in new cities were quarantined for 40 days (a period of time important in Christian theology). (Plague and Pestilence: A history of Infectious Disease, Linda Jacobs Altman p23)

I thought I would show that people were investigating any possible preventives and treatments at the time even though they also believed in prayer. However, how often prayer was used by itself as an question that is only relevant if I assume (as you do) that it was ineffective and that there was something more wise they should have been doing instead.

An Argument Of Alternatives
Both Galen’s Theory of the Humors and Astronomy were explanations offered by Medieval people. You introduced the idea of an investigation into the cause of the plague. However, this is only compelling if 1) without Christianity this sort of investigation would have happened 2) it would have uncovered the source of the bubonic plague and offered helpful answers to the problem that people would not have otherwise had.

1) The Universities of Europe were founded not by secular rulers but by churches even most of North America’s older universities were founded by churches.

The RCC was almost the exclusive producer of books between the forth century fall of Rome and the year 1200. Europe had access to secular Roman and Greek writings as well as the Arabic tradition but only because religious people were preserving them. There is no evidence, that I am aware of, that any secular rulers were pursuing literacy for their kingdoms at all. The vast majority of secular leaders were illiterate.

There is no reason to believe that a Europe would have preserved writing, much less the academic tradition without Christianity. And in that environment I don’t see how an investigation like the one you proposed would have been possible. (The Web of Text and the Web of God pg 25 and 26)

2) If we assume that the tools of investigation were available, universities were founded, and the Greek and Arabic traditions were preserved and a belief in a knowable (Aquinas style universe) existed it would still be really hard to expect that people would come to the solution you suggest.

Observations of cities effected would show that all major cities were effected and only some rural monasteries were spared. If they did make an observation of rats, they would note that cities with the most rats were hit the weakest because plague would have been preceded by a rat die off because the flee that caries the disease does not favor humans (Herlihy p21).

You state that people would likely have had three week window before the plague over-ran a city. In that space of it would not have been possible to identify the rat connection and take action.

Alexandre Yerson required more than three weeks to make the rat connection in the early twentieth century and this was after the disease Bactria had been identified under a microscope. (The Barbary Plague: The Black Death in Victorian San Francisco, Marilyn Chase.) Also, note that even in the twentieth century quarantine remained a critical way of dealing with the plague. To this day it quarantine is suggested by some medical professionals.

Other arguments

You also argue that science got better with time. I don’t know how this is suggestive that people might have been better off if Europe had not had religious beliefs. Certainly, improvement of technology is to be expected as society progressed. You seem to feel this is due to people being more “secular” but religious people are involved in scientific investigations to this day and some of the more important discoveries were by religious believers.

Governments in this time period did not consider public health part of their responsibility. All health measures that would have existed before the first pandemic would have been implemented by the RCC. Hospitals and public health care, food for the destitute, shelter against the elements, places of exile for refugees existed only as provided by the RCC. The degree to which public misery could have been worsened by the absence of these helps is difficult to calculate but certainly quite real.

Also real is the physiological needs that would certainly have been neglected had there been no religion in Medieval Europe. Atheists typically desire burial rights to the same degree as their religious counter parts. No one outside of the religious establishment attempted to provide any acknowledgment in death. Even in Norway today acknowledgment in death frequently comes from religious sources.

If you would like sources on public health, care for the poor, or acknowledgment of death practices I would be glad to show that.

Finally, spiritual needs of the people, while you don’t consider it real, was very urgent to the people at the time and it is an articulated need of most of humanity to this day. It was in this area that the people felt most cheated.

“People began to long for a more intense, personal relationship with God. …The upswing in religious feeling was accompanied by a deepening disillusionment with the Church” (Kelly 290). Some writers believe that for better nourishment of their spiritual needs people following the plague began the
Protestant reformation (http://www.uic.edu/classes/osci/osci590/6_3Plague.htm). Rather than a world turning away from Christianity the Enlightenment seems be most notably market by a movement toward Christian thinking as evidence by and upshot in names from the Christian rather than Teutonic tradition (The Black Death and Transformation of the West, David Herlihy, p8).

Your Questions
So why didn’t God warn people of the danger of transporting of animals or rodents?

I have answered this already. Nobody transports rats on purpose. Even today rats get on ships. During the Third Pandemic (the Asian one around 1900) San Francisco was gassing Asian ship holds to prevent the spread of the disease but rats infected with Bubonic Plague still managed to inter the city (The Barbary Plague: The Black Death in Victorian San Francisco, Marilyn Chase.)

To this day we have not been able to really totally control rats but make no mistake the ancients hated them. Not only did they associate them with disease (The Great Mortality, John Kelly p 65){You can get it on Google books} they feared that they would eat their crops . Even in early Middle Ages before the plague there was a wide market in anti-rodent remedies (Kelly 65).

“The folklore of medieval and early modern India and China also contains several references to the connection between Rattus rattus and Y. pestis.” (Kelly 65). I am not saying they fully understood but they certainly were not dieing because they thought rats were harmless.

Why didn’t God clearly explain germ theory, or explain the dangers of letting the rodent population get out of hand?

You know it is not rational to ask for defense of omniscience. If God is all knowing than it follows that we who are not may not understand all he does? Is a God we understand worth worshiping? Just showing that God commanded something that I don’t understand does not logically show the command to be wrong or God to be nonexistent.

However, this question is kind of funny because I think if you try to explain germ theory to people who don’t have refractive lenses you might not like what you end up saying.

Invisible creatures that travel through the air attack your body causing sickness. Sounds like evil spirits to me.

Besides, germ theory by itself is not helpful. It needs other science to make any since or offer any advice. Finally the OT cleanliness laws were not written to the Europeans but to Jews in Ancient Israel however they would have been really helpful for medieval Europe and were when they were incorporated. Christians tended to look to the OT for principles and not specific rules, one main principle one comes from reading Leviticus is that keeping clean is important against disease.

Why did God only provide help which was already obvious to people, such as cleanliness?

It was not oblivious. It is only oblivious to you since you were raised in a society where this was common knowledge. Cleanness had to compete with ideas like the positions of the stars, pleasant thoughts and sweat foods as ways to prevent disease in the medieval mind. New Galen thinkers even thought bathing was bad because it opened up one’s pores to disease.

The Next Turns Rebuttal

2008-06-15T11:04:00.000-05:00

Hello,

I can’t respond to your last post point by point ...its way too long. So I think it would be better if I restate my argument while trying to address your specific concerns.

Since you said the statements below, I think we can agree on the modified points 1,2, 4 and 5.
"My problem is not that some people might of have felt that their suffering was the wrath of God. I am sure many did."
"Nor do I have problem believing that rats played a major role in transmitting the disease, they certainly did."

1. Most people of medieval Europe believed in a God.
2. A large portion of those people thought that the plague was caused by a divine being.
3. Many people also thought the cure could be obtained by appeasement to God. Thus the main types of investigation into the causes/cures to the plague were divine in nature. This prevented large scale secular investigations into the causes/cures of the plague.
4. Because the underlining causes were not discovered the plague was allow to spread all across Europe and to reach epidemic proportions.
5. During the 17 and 18th centuries large scale secular investigations outnumber divine investigations.
So the only point question (I hope) is point 3.

It sounds like that you think that I don’t believe secular causes/cures for the plague were ever investigated. I agree that they were investigated, but the real question here is on what scale were secular causes/cures investigated compared to divine causes/cures.

My sources shows that there was a wide spread belief that a Divine being caused the plague.(4, 8, 9)

But I also have sources which explain that many people not only believed that a Divine Being was the source of the plague but appeasement to God could provide the cure.
1. “Since religion dominated life in seventeenth-century Italy, prayer was naturally an important weapon against the plague."
http://galileo.rice.edu/fam/bubonic_plague.html
6. “..... and priests might urge their sick parishioners to pray for healing or to visit the shrines of saints.”
http://web.cn.edu/kwheeler/documents/Black_Plague.pdf
9."but also that the faithful should be saved by their belief in Christ.”
http://www.loyno.edu/~history/journal/1996-7/Smith.html

So far I was given 1 source that explains how people used secular investigations. (http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/med/pistoia.html)
Unlike my sources above this source only shows one specific incident where people investigated secular cures more than divine ones.
My sources (1, 6, 9) do not talk about specific situations, they show that investigation of a divine cure was common to the people of that time.

I also have specific sources (including a couple news ones) that shows how many people used appeasement to God as a cure instead of investigating secular cures.
1. "When the plague worsened in Florence during the summer of 1633, an order came from the Commissioner of Health requiring nuns to pray continuously for the next 40 days for divine.”
http://galileo.rice.edu/fam/bubonic_plague.html
13. “Flagellants, religious fanatics of 13th-century Europe who proclaimed the imminence of the wrath of God against corruption and, as a religious rite, practiced public, self-inflicted scourgings. The sect arose in Perugia, in central Italy, in 1259-60 and is said to have numbered 10,000.”
http://www.encarta.ca/encyclopedia_761552477/Flagellants.html#p2
14. “While all countries were filled with lamentations and woe, there first arose in Hungary, and afterward in Germany, the Brotherhood of the Flagellants, called also the Brethren of the Cross, or Cross-bearers, who took upon themselves the repentance of the people for the sins they had committed, and offered prayers and supplications for the averting of this plague. “
http://history-world.org/black_death.htm
(Note: I know that the RCC denouced these sects, but the RCC denounced all Christian sects outside of the RCC)
15. In 1348, Pope Clement VI led a pilgrimage to Rome for mass prayers to appease God. However, over 90% of the pilgrims fell prey to the very plague that they had tried to prevent.
The Black Death. The History of Bubonic Plague. December 2, 2003:
http://cosmos.ucdavis.edu/2005/Cluster%207/Ramya%20Kandasamy.pdf

I believe we can agree that both logical paths happened.

Your logical path:
1. People saw this as natural plague or Divine plague.
2. People saw that no matter if God caused the plague or not a secular cure was needed.
3. People investigated secular cures especially the ones about cleanliness since it is promoted in the bible.
I do believe that this did happen, one quote I like is
"God will not do for mankind that which mankind can already do themselves."

My logical path:
1. People saw this as a punishment of a divine being.
2. People thought since God was doing this, appeasement of God would stop it.
3. People try to appease god by prayer or went on pilgrimages in order to stop or prevent the plague’s spread.
It seems quite logical to me that if a person believes that God was the cause of a plague that appeasement to that God would stop it.

"Wrath of God = lets be passive”, in path2 people were not being passive, they were doing things that they thought would cure them and stop the plague. Passive to me is doing nothing; obviously Christians think that prayer is effective. Also given the time it took for people to die (3 weeks or less), people’s first choice to combat the plague was their only choice since death happened quickly. In other words there was little time for alternative investigations if the first plan failed.

The heart of this debate is not whether these 2 situations happened. Is it at what scale did these 2 situation happen. If you could provide sources which state that the most common way to combat the plague was secular investigation, I would be more apt to believe that appeasement to god did not help to spread of the disease.

Your alternative comparison:
In order to show that appeasement God was not the best thing for the people during this time I must compare it to a more effective alternative. You provided a couple alternatives that people used during these times that were beyond biblical thought. Galen's theory of humors and the Astrological alignment of the planets were 2 such examples. I completely agree that these methods were discussed and did nothing to combat the plague.

My alternative comparison:
The best alternative to deal with this situation is the way we deal with unknown situations today.
If the authority figures of that time, laid out a decree asking all people to be aware of the differences between towns ravaged by plague and the towns that were not. I do not think it would take much time for the people to realize that towns which were hit by the plague also had large rat populations and that rats had something to do with the wide spread migration of the disease.
I have never come across any sources that say the church or the state investigated in this way. This method of investigation would have been way more effective in finding ways to stop the plague than appeasement to God or the use of biblical verses that promoted cleanliness.

On that topic I do feel that adherence to bible scripture which promoted cleanliness did help in these situations. But why did god stop at cleanliness. After all, many other religions promote clean living in their scriptures such as Buddhism, Hinduism and Jainism. This is clear evidence that unclean living was obvious to people since people could see the effects of an unclean situations (bad smell, seeing things rot etc.)
Therefor I have a few questions about the Bible and why only obvious actions to combat disease were included.
So why didn’t God warn people of the danger of transporting of animals or rodents?
Why didn’t God clearly encourage methods of finding out the causes or cures of unknown situations, like the plague?
Why didn’t God clearly explain germ theory, or explain the dangers of letting the rodent population get out of hand?
Why did God only provide help which was already obvious to people, such as cleanliness?

Best Regards,

TheNextTurn

Second Part

2008-06-01T21:51:00.005-05:00

Source #4 says .“In Christian Europe, people believed that the plague was punishment from God for the sins of all Christians. The Christian doctrine of original sin also factored into the European view of the plague, because they believed that the disease was God's punishment to humans for having been born in sin.”

To say that something comes from original sin is a truism (for the branches of Christianity who believe in this doctrine). Original sin along with free will is part of many Christians understanding of the presence of evil.

Original sin means that we don’t live the paradise that existed before the fall. It does not mean we don’t actively deal with consequences. Your source number 3 deals with this. Even when people were thinking up Utopia societies they did that with the understanding that there would be plague and sickness,(aspects of the fall) they could not think past it. Instead they were looking for ways to deal with these expected realities.

This is my answer for all your sources that deal specifically with original sin.

Most of your quotes are talking about specific sins. As I addressed earlier, yes you need to repent but that does not mean we don’t look for answers to our problems. I feel like this idea is clear in the Bible but it is made even more clear and even turned into a theological imperative by St. Thomas Aquinus. I explain in more detail later.

Let’s be clear though not everyone was focused on Gods wrath as the cause of this plague. I think it is interesting that materials from the time show that those who disbelieved in the concept of divine punishment tended to believe that it was caused by “the stars”. You can find this in the conclusions of the Paris Consilium and the writings of
Francesco Petrarca and in the Decameron by Boccaccio.

But theses sources merely confirm a simple logical connection. If one truly believes that a Divine Being was the cause of the problem then divine acts would be the best solution. I sure 1000s of people looked at secular reasons but millions were looking for a divine solution thus closing their minds from secular solutions.
Do you have any logical arguments as to why people would seek other solutions when they thought the disease had a divine purpose?

Just because the disease has a religious purpose does not mean people are not thinking of what to do about the disease. Your source number three talks about how thinkers who believe that plague was caused by God were thinking of ways to control disease (cleaner cities, more hospitals, actually staffed with doctors) . They do not seem to have been constrained by thinking that this was caused by God. I have already shown Bible verses where people are expected to take actions beside religious actions when they are faced by problems even those caused by God.

Another example is language. Genesis teaches that human languages formed as a punishment from God. By your logic medieval people would have abstained from learning foreign languages. Nothing could be farther from the truth. The Church was teaching its monks Latin, Greek, Hebrew and even translating documents out of less obvious languages like Arabic.

I have already tried to explain to you the basic reasoning behind this. The will of God may well be the Ultimate cause but that does not mean that there are not proximal cause that a person can investigate. (Even more according to the thinking of Aquinas a Christian is obligated to look for physical revelations.)

Before the first wave of the bubonic plague science was bad among the various European tribes just after the fall of Rome and the area was in state of constant warfare. However, this science was getting better. The Catholic Church had preserved Roman reading and writing, a skill not known to the still primitive European tribes, and was translating copying and using Greek and Roman theories, histories and other texts.

There had also been theological redevelopments as well. St. Thomas Aquinas had not only come to a Christian understanding of Greek and Roman science but he had destroyed any tension between science and Christianity at the time. He taught that all reason and understanding was from God and that we were to seek to learn through our experiences. Some things could be known only by a spiritual revelation and others through human reasoning and some both. Since Aquinas many Christians have considered exploring the spiritual world an act of worship.

When I was in college I went to church with a scientist who felt his studies with refracting light was a form of worship of the God who created light.

It is hard to conceive of a scenario in which suppressing religion would do much more than spread hopelessness or cause wild hedonistic decadence. In this time of unstable politics and general ignorance following the fall of Rome the Church was the only ones doing anything to help.

The hospitals that did exist were run by the church they were not meant to provide health care so much as to nurse people who could not take care of themselves.
Even if people had access to medicine it was based on mistaken Greek science and would not have helped.

Those who questioned church teaching were focused on astrological explanations

The Catholic church was pushing the idea of contagion and quarantine which until the discovery of the flee connection at the turn of the 20th century or the development of penicillin in 1928 was the most scientifically sound solution available.

Were there any secular solutions that might have helped?

I don’t think so. Medieval Europe was in love with Galen, a very secular Greek scientist. While he did some beautiful anatomy and was the best of his time understanding the human body, his theory of medicine was in error. He believed that the body was ruled by fluids called humors. He also believed that weather and bad air (bad smells, the breath of the sick) affected the amounts of these fluids in the body. All sickness was believed to come imbalances of these fluids and bleeding was a common cure. The people of Europe took Roman science as better than their own and it was not until after the plague that they were willing to challenge it. I suppose you could blame the religious people of the day for preserving the writings of Galen and Hippocrates because if they had no done this these works could not have become dependent upon them.

However, I don’t know that Galen’s mistakes mattered too much after all most people could not afford to see a doctor.

“…ignoring the principles found in the book of Amos “
I agree. Cleanness is promoted in the Bible but stories about God’s use of plagues and other natural disasters as a punishment are much more prevalent.(3) If the Bible is the word of God, in which his wisdom on how to live is passed to us, then I would expect verses that clearly reflect this. Such as, animals that reduce the numbers of vermin like cats are good. That transporting rodents and other animals to other lands is a bad. Boiling water before drinking it is a good. This was simply not the case. (11, 12) If these statements like these were preached by the Church would have almost certainly confined the disease to local areas.

Ok, This is my fault I should have realized that you would not know what they book of Amos was about. Amos is about God destroying a complete social order because the entire wealth of the society was used to carter to the petty desires of the rich even as the poor were suffering. {cliff notes from a secular reading of Amos as literature}.

I think the poor diets of the peasant people were a major factor in spreading the plague. Also a factor was the poor sanitary condition that the people lived in. These people had the sanitary passages of the Old Testament and the teachings of Galen, filth was the practice but the upper classes were not ignorant to its effects. They knew that filth caused disease they were indifferent to the sufferings of the poor who were crammed in to filthy corners of the city and pathetically nursed in unfunded charity hospitals.

While the rich were mostly preoccupied with fashion and took advantage of the poor and the Catholic Church more focused on regional politics than Christianity.

“The Trusting are tricked by the conning of traders; fraud and avarice go hand in hand like sisters; the poor suffer through the depravity of the rich. [Contemporary quote from ‘sins of the times‘ in {The Black Death by Rosemerry Horrex} p136 }.

So when the plague struck it made since to believe that was what happened. This is still of the position of the Orthodox church today (your source). While I doubt it was a direct intervention of God but it does seem like the whole thing could have been prevented by following the principles in the Bible both those of cleanness and those of social responsibility.

Your idea of punishment being more prevalent in the Bible than plagues than are natural plagues misses the point of much of the laws, those laws were there as a protection to the people allowing the natural causes of actions to take course is frequently is the punishment.

I think your point about the rats is silly. Even today ships pass on rats and it is not as if the people of the middle ages did not attempt to control the rat population, they hated rats which destroyed grain. Even during the Bubonic Plague epidemic in San Francisco at the turn of the century the Rats of believed to have entered the city from the ships.

The only useful health measure you brought up not in the bible is the boiling of water and it would not have been very helpful against bubonic plague.

”We agree that rats were the major transmitter. But I think it is important to remember that the disease is airborne and direct contact contagious as well. “
I agree, Air borne disease did infect local populations but it was rats that caused the disease to spread to far away lands.

”3. This closed off millions upon millions of minds from the actual causes of the plague and the appropriate actions needed to stop the spread of the disease.
This is the meat of the argument. But I don’t have any reason to believe that people were not perusing every possible answer to this disease.”

I do agree. During the later outbreaks a majority of people in European nations started investigating secular reasons for the disease.

I disagree the investigations of causes began right away . In 1348 King Philip demands an investigation in to the cause of the plague. The greatest education minds of France in the Paris Consilium come to the conclusion that the alignment of plants was the cause of the plague.

While secular in the respect of not being based on common religion the science of the best non-religious scholars of Europe was hardly scientific. However the Catholics could not be blamed they were highly suspicious of astrology which had its base in pagan mythologies.

You might question how King Philip found these astrologers if the Church distrusted astronomy. While the teachings of the Catholic Church were powerful local leaders pretty much did what they wanted. Kings of both Germany and France on a few occasions even captured Popes who disagreed with them .

Hence my reference to the picture of the plague cloaks, I know it wasn’t that effective but this showed progress. During the 14 century the main focus was on prayer and repentance as my previous stated sources shows. I am sure you will be able to find references to secular causes during the 14th century but they were in the minority. Do you have any references that shows secular investigation was a main method of investigation?

I don’t see how later progress would be a sign that religion was the stifling factor. It is notable that your monk in a plague cloak is still following the advice of Galen in protecting himself against “the bad air” given off by sickness. This is not a change in how they thought about disease just in how they protected themselves. But of course there is something to be said for covering one’s mouth. But religion had nothing to do with it.

”5. Even if things were handed better later, I don’t know what this would have to do with religious belief. I also don’t know what the plague in other locations has to do with religion either.”

The Middle East, China and Europe suffered from the plague but only Europe was hit by wide spread reoccurrences of the disease.
Why didn’t the Europeans have the knowledge to combat the disease?
Why did wide spread re-occurrences only happen in Europe?
These later outbreaks shows that Europeans still did not know what to do in case of plagues. But finally only after the “age of enlightenment” did a large scale investigation of secular reason behind the plague occurred, this is when real solution were discovered.
I don’t believe their faith completely cut the Europeans off from finding secular solutions but it most certainly slowed down their progress. Millions of people went to the grave thinking their death was caused by a lack of repentance for their sins.

Here is my problem with this. All the world was religious not just Europe.

I also find it likely that the Chinese and other Asians had the disease endemically like the Europeans had small pox when they brought it to the Americas. We know that the natural foci of Yersinia pestis is in the Deserts of Central Asia.

Plague is a city growth disease. We also know that Yersinia pestis is cold sensitive, this is why Europeans outbreaks have been linked to the Medieval warm. (yes there is some disagreement to the Medieval warm theory) Basically, it says Europe (which is cold) received a free ride from the Yersinia pestis outbreaks for most of it’s history. Then when the Medieval warm coincided with city growth in a corrupt (indifferent to the poor) culture they got hit especially hard.

Many believe North Africa suffered from the Plague and so did Rome. But these are more equatorial locations and they were not wiped out the way Europe was just as Europe was never wiped out by small pox the way the Native Americans were.

My Rebuttal

2008-06-01T21:22:00.003-05:00

1. An exaggeration but ok, Christianity was the dominant religion.
In this argument I was not signaling out Christianity; Muslins and Jews also thought the plague had a supernatural cause. (2, 5) The 99% is the number people that believed in God.

I actually believe that the number of hard a-spiritualist (not willing to accept any spiritual universe as a possibility) tends to holds steady across time just as color-blindness and deafness do. But this is an argument for another time, yes theistic thinking was dominate but it tended to be challenged by pseudo-scientific ideas about the positions of the planets causing natural disaster. Also, just because Christianity was dominate does not mean that there were no unbelievers only that they were less vocal about it.

I am not in a position to defend the beliefs on Muslims or Jews. I think it likely that people of different religions will have different ways of reasoning from their beliefs. Just as you likely do not think and reason like a Communist or Objectivist. Also just as science was not very sophisticated, theological thinking was not as sophisticated as it would become. The teachings of St. Thomas Aquinas (who I will talk about more) was an early medieval improvement on the knee jerk rejection of pagan thought.

My problem is not that some people might of have felt that their suffering was the wrath of God. I am sure many did.
I am not sure how many believed that the plague was caused by God, either as a punishment or the start of the Apocalypse or the work of the devil. The low figures I have seen are at 30% and high ones go as high as 90%. Although I would consider the number was way over 50%, I can agree on 50% of the people thought this way.

I have no idea how we would know this or where these figures are coming from.

However, yes people felt like it was the end of the world. It is not surprising since society really was falling apart. Atheist or not surrounded by that magnitude of death a person would naturally believe that this was the end. The hedonism practiced by many directly following the plague {Issues of Death} would have followed from an atheist point of view. If there is no God, of course, a person should seek to have as much enjoyment as possible in their final days. Certainly, the Catholic Church was critical of the widespread practice of throwing indulgent celebrations during or immediately after the plague.

I do not find it surprising that people had the logic of punishment and like I have discussed before it could have been less of problem if the principles of the Bible had been followed. While many felt it was punishment for disobeying God they would not have assumed that Wrath of God = “lets be passive” like you do. In fact, one of the more common responses was to clean up the city like was done in Pistoia during the spring of 1348.

Also, because the world is not supposed to end in a plague, people were comforted after the other horsemen (that is other signs of the end of world) did not show up (History Channel -The Plague). Faith instills the hope needed to recover and likely limited the moral natural desire to give up hope and indulge in hedonism.

2. ”I don’t think this (God was the ONLY solution) is apparent at all. Just because a person views God as the Ultimate cause does not mean that they are unaware of a Proximate cause. If we were to follow this logic you would have to believe that Christians never try to solve problems because we believe God ultimately in control of the universe. Clearly that is false.”

Yes I would say that a majority of Christians today do not believe God controls everything. But go ask a person that takes the Bible literally; today many main stream evangelicals say that God punishes people through disease, natural and human disasters. I know I shouldn’t judge a Faith based on its “whackos”, since these people have a minority of Christian followers. But during the 14th century the majority of people thought exactly the way that these “whackos” do. (0, 2, 3)

I disagree with your idea that only the “whackos” among Christians still believe God controls everything. Or this idea that some how Medieval Christians did not look for proximal as well as ultimate causes for their problems. Especially with the teachings of St. Thomas Aquinas medieval people would have felt obligated to understand the creation and God’s work through the physical universe.

Look, this goes a little off topic but I really want to address this. It is important. All Christians believe that God controls everything. I do, we all do. We believe He is the Ultimate Cause of everything that goes on. That does not mean that there are not proximal causes as well. People who believe in a God who does not control the world are called deists. I like how the Salvation Army likes to say “When natural disasters cause acts of God.” Meaning that natural disasters create situations when Christians (Christ’s earthly body) need to do things.
Very few Christians take the whole Bible literally but we literally believe it is God‘s word.

I mean, Jesus taught in parables (metaphorical stories) and several books of the Bible are poetry. Of course, the whole Bible is not literal! Even people who habitually say “I believe the Bible is literally true” if I went up to them and said “Why is John taking about candlesticks so much in Revelation?” They would answer he is talking about Churches. Candlesticks were a metaphor for Churches.”

We believe God is in charge but we take actions and we discover thing based on that belief. Even in the Bible people pray and do stuff.

Isaac and his family were hit by a famine so the went to Egypt to look for food. The did not stay home and pray and starve. (Genesis 42)

Saul tries to kill David. David uses a ruse to trick Saul so he can run away. Later when his is in the desert he looks to God for spiritual strength. (Samuel 10-20)

David and Jacob are major spiritual figures in the Old Testament. Spirituality and action went hand and hand. Here is a negative example quite like the plague.

In the book of Isaiah, Israel is invaded by Assyria and when people passively reply “let’s eat drink and be merry” the prophet tells how wrong they were for sitting by instead of preparing to deal with the problem at hand. They had made some preparations but when it seemed insufficient they gave up. What they needed to do was repent and prepare for battle.

Frequently this is quote is attributed falsely to Epicurus a Greek philosopher who did not believe in life after death. But is a fair picture of a the only possible true materialist answer to a hopeless situation. While most atheists are not aware of Epicurus his ideas of a life lived for pleasure has been the reoccurring a-spiritualist theme.

Yes, the Bible teaches people to pray but it also insists that they take actions on the proximate causes of their problems. More than that it offers the hope to take actions on ones problems when all hope seem lost. It is an alternative to giving in to the suicidal hopelessness of a crisis in a purely materialistic universe {I know the study is modern and may not hold for medieval people but it is an example of the kind of response I am talking about. }

I do have a few sources that state that how often people thought prayer or repentance was the only solution. (1, 4, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10).

Your first source does not show that people thought prayer and repentance was the only solution. In fact, it talks about some other solutions that were used at the time.

Your source shows that people prayed but this did not stop them from taking other actions as well.

“Besides prayer, city officials reacted to an outbreak of the plague by ordering the city to be kept clean, by setting up a pesthouse outside the city wall, and by requiring detailed reports from physicians. Further, when someone died from the plague, his or her belonging were burned for fear that they might spread the infection. People who died from plague were buried in common graves outside the city wall, rather than at a local church as was the custom.”

I also think it was interesting that the Nun is offering medical cures and apparently experimenting with Apothecary. All this and the article describes her religion as “extreme”. Obviously this article is being quite subjective but seems to feel that a person could be “extreme” and still feel comfortable attempting more ‘secular’ cures.

Of A Questionable Source

2008-05-25T23:25:00.006-05:00

NextTurn's argument came with a list of sources some of which I am disputing. As always he is blue I am black. Links will be red.

I have some problems with some of your sources.

2. “The problem with taking action in the face of pestilence more specifically originated from the generally-held Old Testament interpretation of plague as God's rod of judgment inflicted upon the disobedient, Jew and gentile alike. Genesis, Exodus, Deuteronomy, Psalms, and prophets Jeremiah, Hosea, and Zechariah unanimously decree that failing to acknowledge and uphold God's law leads directly to God's wrath delivered in the form of plague.”
http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G1-56061943.html3.

For some reason your link is not working for me and I am having an hard time finding the article that this belongs to. I would appreciate it if you would send me the article name and author.

7. Church officials urged those infected with plague to ask repentance and refrain from worldly pleasures. People were taught to reverently pray to their favorite saint at regular intervals. The body was seen as an unholy entity and although prayer services were held, not much was done to ease the suffering of plague victims. Herbal remedies were viewed by the church as methods of witchcraft—therefore, the church did not encourage physical remedies.
The Black Death. The History of Bubonic Plague. December 2, 2003:
http://cosmos.ucdavis.edu/2005/Cluster%207/Ramya%20Kandasamy.pdf

This is a high school term paper.

11. “In the early thirteenth century Pope Gregory IX declared that a sect in southern France had been caught worshipping the devil. He claimed the devil had appeared in the form of a black cat. Cats became the official symbol of heresy (or religious beliefs not advocated by the church). Anyone who showed any compassion or feeling for a cat came under the church's suspicion. By the beginning of the fourteenth century, Europe's cat population had been severely depleted. Only semi-wild cats survived in many areas.”

http://www.libraryindex.com/pages/2149/History-
Human-Animal-Interaction-MEDIEVAL-PERIOD.html

I have no clue where this source comes from and if they are reliable. I doubt it is reliable though because it is unprofessionally written. Sources are supposed to be from people who are reliable and expert in the field they are discussing. A professor of history, theology or science is good (depending on what they are talking about). This is not good.

12. “Anyone who kept a cat, which kept rats at bay, might be accused of being in league with the devil, and put to death. A cat was often considered a witch’s familiar. Increasingly, women living alone, without the protection of a father or husband, were also vulnerable to accusations of witchcraft, for which the penalty was hanging.”
http://gbgm-umc.org/umw/bible/campaigns.stm

Not only is this not an academic source (these people are not more qualified to speak about this topic than you or me.) The United Church of Christ is a “church” of people with an ax to grind against religious people. Hardly an unbiased source. Anyway it is full of weasel words, like “often”and “increasingly”.

Also, I really don't think anyone really believes that the Europe was emptied of cats as you suggest. I suspect a Pope might have actually made an order about cats at one time but that hardly shows that for that Europe's cats had depopulated.

I am trying to be really flexible about allowing sources I did not dispute the Orthodox Church as a history source, an English Professor (source 6) as a history source, and the Dental Anthropologists (source 5) as a history source.

I appreciate the work you put into this. I do read all your sources and I am hoping to give you a through answer but I don’t feel obligated to refute or explain these sources. For most of your sources I feel not understanding the theology behind statements is your biggest misunderstanding.

2008-05-22T21:10:00.001-05:00

Hi Poetsong,

The camping was great, thanks.
I enjoy conversing with you, very clear and to the point.

1. An exaggeration but ok, Christianity was the dominant religion.
In this argument I was not signaling out Christianity; Muslins and Jews also thought the plague had a supernatural cause. (2, 5) The 99% is the number people that believed in God.

My problem is not that some people might of have felt that their suffering was the wrath of God. I am sure many did.
I am not sure how many believed that the plague was caused by God, either as a punishment or the start of the Apocalypse or the work of the devil. The low figures I have seen are at 30% and high ones go as high as 90%. Although I would consider the number was way over 50%, I can agree on 50% of the people thought this way.

2. ”I don’t think this (God was the ONLY solution) is apparent at all. Just because a person views God as the Ultimate cause does not mean that they are unaware of a Proximate cause. If we were to follow this logic you would have to believe that Christians never try to solve problems because we believe God ultimately in control of the universe. Clearly that is false.”

Yes I would say that a majority of Christians today do not believe God controls everything. But go ask a person that takes the Bible literally; today many main stream evangelicals say that God punishes people through disease, natural and human disasters. I know I shouldn’t judge a Faith based on its “whackos”, since these people have a minority of Christian followers. But during the 14th century the majority of people thought exactly the way that these “whackos” do. (0, 2, 3)

I do have a few sources that state that how often people thought prayer or repentance was the only solution. (1, 4, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10) But theses sources merely confirm a simple logical connection. If one truly believes that a Divine Being was the cause of the problem then divine acts would be the best solution. I sure 1000s of people looked at secular reasons but millions were looking for a divine solution thus closing their minds from secular solutions.
Do you have any logical arguments as to why people would seek other solutions when they thought the disease had a divine purpose?

“…ignoring the principles found in the book of Amos “
I agree. Cleanness is promoted in the Bible but stories about God’s use of plagues and other natural disasters as a punishment are much more prevalent.(3) If the Bible is the word of God, in which his wisdom on how to live is passed to us, then I would expect verses that clearly reflect this. Such as, animals that reduce the numbers of vermin like cats are good. That transporting rodents and other animals to other lands is a bad. Boiling water before drinking it is a good. This was simply not the case. (11, 12) If these statements like these were preached by the Church would have almost certainly confined the disease to local areas.

”We agree that rats were the major transmitter. But I think it is important to remember that the disease is airborne and direct contact contagious as well. “
I agree, Air borne disease did infect local populations but it was rats that caused the disease to spread to far away lands.

”3. This closed off millions upon millions of minds from the actual causes of the plague and the appropriate actions needed to stop the spread of the disease.
This is the meat of the argument. But I don’t have any reason to believe that people were not perusing every possible answer to this disease.”

I do agree. During the later outbreaks a majority of people in European nations started investigating secular reasons for the disease. Hence my reference to the picture of the plague cloaks, I know it wasn’t that effective but this showed progress. During the 14 century the main focus was on prayer and repentance as my previous stated sources shows. I am sure you will be able to find references to secular causes during the 14th century but they were in the minority. Do you have any references that shows secular investigation was a main method of investigation?

”5. Even if things were handed better later, I don’t know what this would have to do with religious belief. I also don’t know what the plague in other locations has to do with religion either.”

The Middle East, China and Europe suffered from the plague but only Europe was hit by wide spread reoccurrences of the disease.
Why didn’t the Europeans have the knowledge to combat the disease?
Why did wide spread re-occurrences only happen in Europe?
These later outbreaks shows that Europeans still did not know what to do in case of plagues. But finally only after the “age of enlightenment” did a large scale investigation of secular reason behind the plague occurred, this is when real solution were discovered.
I don’t believe their faith completely cut the Europeans off from finding secular solutions but it most certainly slowed down their progress. Millions of people went to the grave thinking their death was caused by a lack of repentance for their sins.

Forbidden Jokes

2008-05-21T10:54:00.003-05:00

The Dutch police have arrested a man on suspicion of having published offensive cartoons. Remember this is not even criminal here in the United States. Free speech means, and must mean that people will be offended. Some progressives might argue that people are allowed to express hateful feelings such feeling will certainly dominate. However, that assumes that other people will not be critical.

That Europe has wholesale abandoned the concept of the Market Place of ideas is rather troubling. Constantly, I get Europeans telling me how free I am not but I can't think of anyone I might mock and end up in jail. Europe, look around, this looks like Germany in the 1930's.

Supernatural Cause

2008-05-16T15:43:00.006-05:00

Next Turn wrote me the following.

Ill have to reply after the weekend... going camping!

Anyway I post my sources for the following claims when I return.
1. Most poeple beleived the plague has supernatural cause.
2. Rats were the way the disease spread across Europe.

I sursprised that I actually need to post sources for these claims since they are so main steam on the subject.
If you would like to help me, search for combinations of "Black Black", "God", "Bubonic Plague", "Rats" and "rodents" in google an look at the overwhelming refferences to these ideas.

I will also comment on your arguments.

Have good weekend.

TheNextTurn

I hope you enjoyed your camp-out.

Before you start looking up sources about how some people felt the plague was the wrath of God. Please look at what my real problems with your argument are.

My problem is not that some people might of have felt that their suffering was the wrath of God. I am sure many did.

Nor do I have problem believing that rats played a major role in transmitting the disease, they certainly did.

Here are the statements that I feel you need to support with evidence.

2. A majority of those people thought the best/only solution was through God. (prayer etc.) It is very apparent that the majority of people in Europe thought that plague was caused by a vengeful God or the devil, and/or the ONLY solution was through God.

I don’t think this is apparent at all. Just because a person views God as the Ultimate cause does not mean that they are unaware of a Proximate cause. If we were to follow this logic you would have to believe that Christians never try to solve problems because we believe God ultimately in control of the universe. Clearly that is false.

One could even argue that ignoring the principles found in the book of Amos really was the ultimate cause of the plague. If the rich elite had not ignored the terrible sanitary conditions in the poor quarters of the growing cities it is unlikely the plague would have been so bad.

Also, when I answered you. I answered as if you felt the bodies of the dead was a major factor in the disease. When I reread your argument I saw that I had mistaken what you were saying. We agree that rats were the major transmitter. But I think it is important to remember that the disease is airborne and direct contact contagious as well.

3. This closed off millions upon millions of minds from the actual causes of the plague and the appropriate actions needed to stop the spread of the disease.

This is the meat of the argument. But I don’t have any reason to believe that people were not perusing every possible answer to this disease.

5. This is re-affirmed the by large number of subsequent outbreaks in Europe during later centuries that were not as frequent in other places of the world that were equally effected by the plague during the 14th century.

Even if things were handed better later, I don’t know what this would have to do with religious belief. I also don’t know what the plague in other locations has to do with religion either.

Please focus on these issues. I feel like we agree on your points 1 and 4. I am not sure what point 5 has to do with our discussion.

Have a nice week.

No Other Solution

2008-05-14T20:33:00.005-05:00

NextTurn Replies.

First of all, I am not suggesting that prayer caused the plague in the first place. Nor do I believe prayer increased the painful symptoms of the disease. And I do feel in many circumstance prayer may relieved an individuals suffering in terms of a placebo effect.

I do believe that prayer prolonged the spread of the disease by hampering logical solutions that could have stopped/prevented the spread of it. Prayer did this by giving people an apparent solution to the problem, thus millions upon millions of minds were closed to the investigation of a solution because – in their minds- the best solution was already available. In other words, why look for a NEW solution when almost everyone believed faith, repentance and prayer was the best or the only solution to the problem.

It is very apparent that the majority of people in Europe thought that plague was caused by a vengeful God or the devil, and/or the ONLY solution was through God. One my favorite cartoons depicts, a devote Catholic, praying to God to save her family from the plague as she bats away a rat lurking by. This mindset is shown by the actions of lawmakers and the Church as they introduced laws and policies that cracked down on immoral behavior as a solution to the plague. There were also many accounts of placing blame on people using them as scapegoats.

What would REALLY scare me is if prayer actually did cure some people. If someone was miraculously healed and told others, then the misconception of how to stop the disease would be re-enforced, thus making the possibility of finding a REAL and comprehensive solution much less likely. In fact, since the morality rate was not 100% a few people that became sick did get better and since everyone prayed, they most likely cited prayer, repentance or faith as what saved them.
(The underlying solution to this disease was the controlling the rodent population and the proper disposing of dead bodies, human feces and other waste products as so to not attract the carriers of the disease and conditions that allowed the disease to flourish. The Catholic mistrust of cats -as an association to witchcraft- also contributed to the spread of the plague.)

To recap my argument in logical steps:
1. 99% of people medieval Europe believed in a God.
2. A majority of those people thought the best/only solution was through God. (prayer etc.)
3. This closed off millions upon millions of minds from the actual causes of the plague and the appropriate actions needed to stop the spread of the disease.
(Rodent control & city cleanliness; I wouldn’t expect people to understand germ theory during that time)
4. Because the underlining causes were not discovered the plague was allow to spread all across Europe and to reach epidemic proportions.
5. This is re-affirmed the by large number of subsequent outbreaks in Europe during later centuries that were not as frequent in other places of the world that were equally effected by the plague during the 14th century.
(During this time people started to understand how the disease spread as shown by doctor’s new apparel as depicted in this picture: )

All the information -concerning the plague and the human reaction to it- I presented here I consider common knowledge, thus I have not posted any references. If you do not consider this common knowledge I can post references if you want me to.

My Answer.

Ok, Next Turn
1. An exaggeration but ok, Christianity was the dominant religion.

2. Do you have any evidence at all for this assertion? Really this just looks like you projecting your ignorance of Christian doctrine. People are not taught to pray and do nothing. All through the Bible people pray and prepare not pray or prepare.

Passively praying does not look like what the people of Europe were doing at all. They were trying everything they could think of from filling rooms with smoke, quarantining people, bleeding people even rubbing birds on their bubos, looking for anything that might help.

There was a propagation of cures of all types which is very inconsistent with your idea that people were unwilling to experiment for religious reasons.

3. Do you have any evidence of this?

Anyway the science of the time was not pointing in this direction. Instead, secular people were focused on issues like ’vapors’ that needed to be combated by smoke and by eating certain foods at certain times or draining off bad fluids from the blood.

None of which would have helped but were based on the very imperialist teachings of Galen who maintained that sickness came from a lack of balance not from an attack on the body as we now know.

One of your underlining causes is wrong (In the Wake of the Plague, Norman Cantor p17) the bodies had very low contagion but the medieval people were deathly afraid of the bodies (Cantor p17).

One of your other causes, filth was known to the people at that time (English Life and Law in the Time of the Black Death, Mark Senn). Also the connection between filth and disease was a religious one in the medieval mind going back to Judeo-Christian conception of sin as filth.

The only effective practice of the time was also a religious one. Quarantine was enforced after the first year (Cantor 25) and is a technique that while not found in the secular Greek writings of Galen ( trusted at the time) could be found in the Bible .

So it was not surprising that the Church was the one leading the way in making doors of households tainted with the plague.

4. The plague certainly did spread and kill dramatically.

5. Your picture of the doctor wearing gloves and a mask. You already know that this attire would not have been helpful since the disease was not mostly airborne.

The real reason the plague subsided is because the population had grown resident the bacteria. The same methods that failed with the bubonic plague were used again (and failed again) for the smallpox and cholera epidemics. (Senn).

I need to see some evidence for your assertions. I still don’t have any reason to believe that religion caused people to suffer more during the black plague or in any way inhibited people’s ability to deal with the epidemic.

Plague Replies

2008-05-12T17:16:00.002-05:00

The Next Turn

*Timeline*
"I don’t know of any data about the Asia numbers at all please give me some source on this."

The 14th century plague is estimated to have killed 30% of the population of China.
http://chip.med.nyu.edu/course/view.php?id=13&topic=1

China's population suffered greatly, often yielding an estimate of twenty-five million deaths during the 14th century.
http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/1999-02/919734037.Mi.r.html
Gottfried, Robert S. (1983). The Black Death. New York: The Free Press

I think we agree on this part, I know its very subjective. I just was a ball park figure for the timeline and location. Yes the 1300s was when China was infected the most, with no signicant out breaks after the 14 century.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/middle_ages/black_09.shtml

Europe was affeced the most in the 1300s but had many large reoccurances all the way up to the 18th century.
http://faculty.ed.umuc.edu/~jmatthew/naples/goldenage.htm
http://www.mindquestacademy.org/publichealth/Linkfile/BubonicPlague.htm
http://depts.washington.edu/baltic/papers/poland.htm

*The Spread*
"It is also possible to catch the Bubonic Plague from direct contact with infectious bodily fluids or inhalation of the infectious air droplets. It was personally contagious and airborne."

I agree. One form of the disaese was airborne but the spread due to flea bites was the most common way poeple became infected.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=ShowDetailView&TermToSearch=17479906&ordinalpos=3&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

*Morality Rate*
The bubonic plague was the most commonly seen form during the Black Death, with a mortality rate of seventy-five percent.
Suffering in Paradise: The Bubonic Plague in English Literature from More to Milton, (Pittsburgh: Duquense University Press: 2005), p. 26.

I found this stat as well, so I can agree upon a rate of 75%.

We ready to rock now... or do you have some concerns about figures?

Ok, I let's get on with this please tell me how you could possibly think religion make the black plague worse.

Plague Facts

2008-05-11T14:49:00.003-05:00

TheNextTurn sent me an email with some facts, he wants to see if we agree on. TheNextTurn we be blue and I will be black. I have not omitted any of his argument but I will post my responses as we go.

Timeline: The plague hit different parts of Europe and Asia between 1300 – 1600AD.
Number of deaths: 30-60% of Europe’s and Asia's population was affected, amounting to about 75 million deaths.

30-60% of Europe is what I understand to be the standard numbers but I don’t know of any data about the Asia numbers at all please give me some source on this. It seems to have appeared in Europe in the 1300’s. I presume it was finished in Asia by then. (emedicen talks about an earlier outbreak that is supposed to have happened in the Middle East.) I thought 25 million was the accepted European number and I don’t know of a good count for Asia at all.

The Disease: Although other diseases did contribute, Yersinia pestis (Bunonic Plague) was by far the most common since.

We will agree on that.

The Spread: The disease was spread by fleas, which had a high resistance to the disease. The infected fleas would further infect land mammals such as farm animals, dogs and cats. But rodents were by far the most common mammal to spread the disease due to their high birth rate. Mamanals were most vunerable to the disease.

It is also possible to catch the Bubonic Plague from direct contact with infectious bodily fluids or inhalation of the infectious air droplets. It is contagious and airborne.

Mortality Rate: BP had a mortality rate of ninety to ninety-five percent.

I am not sure of the morality rate for the ancient world. However we can guess using numbers from the modern third world in which about 50% of bubonic plague patients who fail to receive any antibiotic treatment die. I am willing to give that the numbers were larger in ancient Europe. I find it unlikely that people were well cared for when civilization was in disarray from this plague however 95% is still unlikely.

Addendum:septicaemic plague and pneumonic plague do have death rates as high as 95%

The Guantlet is Cast

2008-05-09T21:17:00.003-05:00

Ok, so I will be posting a debate with TheNextTurn

"Did religious practice contribute the suffering during the plague or was it a help?”"

2008-05-01T15:46:00.000-05:00

Please read this article and watch the video on bio-fuels.

Black Day

2008-04-17T09:25:00.002-05:00

Talk about a depressing holiday. The South Koreans have holiday to mark having not received any gifts for St. Valentines day in February. I guess I have to chock this down to I don't understand. Ok, there can be some sadness at getting missed on St. Valentines day, that I understand but I would not want anyone to know I was sad much less make a big deal about it two months later.

It seemed strange to me also that in Korea and Japan women give gifts to men but most of the people celebrating this holiday seem to be women. I know sometimes I receive gifts on St. Valentines day and sometimes I don't I have never been particularly concerned with it. Unless, you have an active boyfriend or a husband I don't see how one could have that expectation or a need to make a public declaration of sadness. I would be afraid in a culture like South Korea about looking bad for having never found love but I guess it does not bother them so much.

Don't Save the Planet

2008-03-06T11:31:00.001-05:00

I just a read an article where the writer tells us not to save the planet, after all the planet will be just fine. I agree. Actually it was really funny. It reminds me of something a friend of mine posted on his livejournal.

Don't Die

2008-03-05T17:10:00.002-05:00

In France a Mayor declared that anyone who dies in the perish will be punished. The real issue though is how poor Frances bureaucracy can handle even everyday problems. Because government forbade the perish from buying additional land to expand in cemetery.

Too Close for Comfort

2008-01-13T12:28:00.000-05:00

A par of twins separated at birth met and married, they have now had their marriage dissolved by the British Government. This case has been an occasion for some in the UK to push for the names of sperm donors to appear on birth certificates.

To me though it brings up a bigger issue about the incest that suspect goes on in society in general. Most children have half siblings, usually several and many don't know who their half siblings are, either because they are product of a one night stand or because their father is one of numerous boyfriends a father has. It is not usual for fathers not to be listed on birth certificate or to be listed wrong. There is huge potential for incest to be going on and unlike in this case we may never know about it.

Running Off

2008-01-11T14:24:00.000-05:00

The recent unrest in Kenya is running off any chance a material success and prosperity the country ever had. Almost a symbol of all the good things this instability is running off is the way Kenya's world class runners are leaving the country.

Also at stake is Kenya's economy which recently was one of the most wealthy in Africa. Just a few weeks ago the news was full of good hopes from this nation, Kenya taking outsourcing jobs away from India, and Kenya getting fiber-optic cables and internet through-out the country. Kenya's strong tourism industry which had always been helped by their stability and peacefulness is shattered.

International observers seem to feel that the elections was rigged and that would offer a lot support for the opposition if they were not calling for protests at time when protest had been violent and resulted in hundreds of murders. That kind of irresponsibility is sad even if the opposition was duly elected.

I feel like what we are seeing in Kenya is a warning about the politics of identity altogether. The violence is not about who feels what path is the best for Kenya it is about which ethnic group will get control. Here in the United States we see the dark echoes of that kind of thinking. Candidates especially Barac and Hillary seem be campaigning on who they are (African American/woman) rather than what they stand for or personal qualifications. It is the politics of devision and identity and it causes chaos and poverty wherever it goes.

Globle Warming

2008-01-10T20:46:00.000-05:00

I am reasonably skeptical regarding man-made global warming. In general I feel that not giving off as much pollution is good thing in either case. Certainly, I advocate environmentalism but not so much environmental hypocrites such a Al Gore.

But more than the environmental impact of global warming there is the social impact. Weather is no long a 'safe' topic of conversation. I will see someone I want to make small talk with and say "Warm weather we're having this year" and before I know it I have provoked a huge debate with issues ranging from Middle East foreign policy to the rights and responsibilities of the government regarding to regulation of large cooperations.

I really need a new 'safe topic' there is no need to get into a heated debate with everyone I come across. Lately, I have been asking people about what they ate last. In the United States at least (but certainly not in the Middle East) I think food is still a safe subject.

As Unfrench as a Smoking Ban

2008-01-01T21:07:00.000-05:00

Starting today people in French cafes will no longer be permitted to smoke while they drink their coffee or wine. I certainly am sympathetic to the any fears the French might have to loosing their traditional culture and I felt measures like this were draconian when they were past in my state.

What I find striking about the USA Today article is how often it refers (four times) to the French fear of 'becoming American'. Maybe the article overstates itself but if not I wonder why the French mind is so obsessed with the United States that they bring us to this matter which to a very dramatic extent could not have less to do with us.

Boyfriends not Fathers

2007-11-17T14:08:00.000-05:00

The news has finally stated what many know from their own experience that families with a single mother, or worse a single mother in her boyfriend have a much higher rate of child abuse. This study is way over due. Just a few years ago people looked shocked when I said the same thing in a college classroom.

Divorce is no Day at the Fair

2007-10-27T15:56:00.000-05:00

Organizers were surprised when in Vienna, Austria few turned out for the first (and likely last ever) Divorce Fair. There were layers, and therapists on hand to help people deal with the fall out of divorce but there was little if any advice to prevent it.

The main reason why there was so little response is that even in Austria where marriages are more likely to fail than to succeed, that failure and the fall-out from it is nothing people want to publicly celebrate.

Free Dental Care For All

2007-10-16T09:11:00.000-05:00

At a time when there is a push for state run health care in the United State we should look at how well these systems are working in other countries. In England people are using private health care or even resorting to doing their own dentistry because of the serious problems with the public system. Dental care is less not more available.

We should give careful consideration to how we will deal with these problems before we push to start an expensive public health care system in this country.

Simple Not Easy

2007-10-15T08:57:00.001-05:00

Recently, I found myself in agreement with the Seattle Times Op-editorial. While that is uprising also was the message. If we want to end obesity more laws are not the answer, we just have to eat less and move more. Like some much advice, it is simple but not easy and very very true.

A Japanese Depression

2007-10-10T09:26:00.000-05:00

A recent study has come out showing that almost 10% of all Japanese teenagers are depressed or have manic depression. The study shows that normal factors such as time spend outside and diet do not seem to be playing a role. I would like to see if ethnically Japanese people living in other locations (such as in the United States, Korea, ect) have the same rate of depression. I wonder if the famously stoic culture contributes to the rate of depression among youths. Japan is the most secular society in the world (among societies with religious freedom) so I wonder how the depression rate for Japan would compare to those in South Korea which is culturally and environmentally quite similar but much more religious.

Thou Shall Not Eat Hamburger

2007-09-16T20:45:00.000-05:00

There seems to be no limit to the liberal desire to control peoples lives, or so it seems from a new Los Angeles zoning regulation which will prevent fast-food restaurants from setting up shop in single family and poor neighborhoods. While advocates say that residents have no choice but to eat in these restaurants the choice of cooking at home remains for even the poorest families. Rather it is the LA government that is forcing an end to choice.

Many times liberals will repeat the motto "Don't legislate morality". I guess that does not include regulating gluttony. Yet ridiculous laws like this one evasively control the details of a persons life can only be seen as a legislation of an alternative secular morality. There real moral of the story is that their are serious problems with trying to change peoples behavior from the top down as we saw with Prohibition.

Some people believe that it was civil rights legislation that changed the way many Black people where treated in the United States but I disagree. What really made the difference was the way that the civil rights protesters changed peoples opinions. The greatest mistake of modern liberalism is that it does not attempt to change people's opinion and influence their choices. Instead, they focus on top down changes which people understand and clearly see and an attack on their freedoms.

The greatest tragedy of this story is the infamous poverty and lawlessness of the area. In one of the richest cities in the wealthy United States lies one of the poorest neighborhoods in the Unites States without adequate police protection where the morality rate from violence among young men is similar to that of war zone. Instead of helping to deal with these problems the city of Los Angeles has chosen to preach about how their poor eat. Thee shows a patronizing and lack of respect for the freedom of people to make basic choices about their own lives and well as a callousness for there difficulties.

This is let them eat cake LA style.

Less Death

2007-09-13T20:51:00.000-05:00

A recent study has come out saying that the number of children dieing each year has dropped below 10 thousand. This drop has come even as the global population has continued to rise meaning the that the worldwide mortality rate for children is plummeting. May note that the percentage by which childhood death has been dropping each year has slowed from 2% to a much slower 1.3%.

The continued drop in the death of children even as the Earth's population continues to grow. Doesn't this fly in face of the logic of those who believe only by reducing the number of humans will there be enough to go around?

The Skinny on Gasoline

2007-09-12T20:03:00.000-05:00

A recent study links cheap gas prices and obesity. During times of higher gas prices (adjusted for inflation) people were leaner. Could the cheap gas that Americans long for be the cause of our ills (in addition of course to lack of self control)?

So here is the question how high would gas prices have to get before you start thinking about walking or taking a bike to some of the places you go?

Mush Doggy

2007-07-15T18:49:00.000-05:00

I know living in Florida I used to day-dream about dog-sled mushing, I even hooked my dog up to my bike once, which did not really work out. Apparently, I am not the only one who got that idea.

Deja Vu

2007-06-13T21:29:00.000-05:00

New recent studies now believe that Deja Vu is a memory problem where you are mistaking an old memory for a present reality. They have even found the part of the brain that when when malfunctioning will cause Deja Vu.

No Smoking

2007-06-09T11:09:00.000-05:00

The Spreading European ban on smoking will include the famous Bars and Coffee shops of Amsterdam where pot smoking has until now been legal and accepted. The fact that the more dangerous pot is only being outlawed because of the moderately dangerous tobacco is a perfect example of the internal inconsistency of the Western Civilization where the government does not want to curb vice or excess but still wants to protect you from your self. And in the end these things tend to balance themselves out. The storefront brothels and the marijuana coffee houses were the show case of the Dutch sophisticated hedonism and now the very liberalism that created them maybe what makes it all fall apart.

No surprises

2007-05-11T17:50:00.000-05:00

Giulani staunchly defends the practice of abortion and the media seems to be surprised but they should not be Giulani was always a social liberal, or as the were recently called until the word became misused....a neocon. In many of his positions he very like Mrs. Clinton but is I will say quiet up right and honest, and like Mrs. Clinton, I doubt he can win. But unlike Mrs. Clinton I doubt Giulani will survive the primaries.

Giulani, was up front and honest in supporting legal abortion even at the Houston Baptist University but social conservatives will have to honestly choose to vote for someone else. Even though in practical terms the social conservatives have had few if any victories they are still seen as an enemy and a controlling force in politics by a growing number of increasingly religion hostile liberals. John McCain, unlike Giulani, was willing to make a reluctant public statement about his opposition to abortion which I believe is more official than heartfelt.

I feel like when you take Giulani's past into account than his choice to stand up for abortion is no more surprising than the Popes recent opposition to it, which was marveled at by a media who never stops being surprised that the Pope is in fact Catholic. The Pope is Catholic Giulani is a neocon, no surprises.... except the courage with both have stated the obvious this week.

Child's Play

2007-05-10T14:54:00.000-05:00

The Hamas backed children's show called "Tomorrows Pioneers" has caused quite a lot of surprise in the Western World. But the cartoonish mouse singing about an AK47 should not have surprised anyone, this sort of fair has been the norm on Palestinian televisions for years. It is however quiet a difference from similar shows in the West which tend to stress interpersonal problem solving (sharing, forgiveness) and language and math skills.

Some of the more shocking dialogue has been questioned by some translators but even the unquestioned parts of the show are quiet strong warlike messages. Young humans can be some of the most dangerous do not forget it was the child soldier's of the Khmer Rouge that were involved in those killings and child soldiers that are involved in the most bloody of the African Wars today.

Most disappointing about this is that it undermines the hopes of the Palestinians themselves, they can not win a military confrontation against Israel, and to ask of the young to fight that war is to ask them to fight fruitlessly. Yet, if the Palestinians taught craftiness and not hate they would likely have their own country by now, and those of us would would have liked to have been sympathetic would feel more free to be so.

An End To Limbo

2007-04-20T16:38:00.000-05:00

Pope Benedict is clarifying the Catholic teachings on the souls of children who die before Baptism is a way that looks much closer to the beliefs of most Protestant believers. It is also relevant because it may to take some of the pressure off of families who felt pressed to hurry up and baptise children and for people worried about the ramifications of abortion. The Catholic Church never officially taught Limbo but it has been widely believe by Catholics and has never before been confronted by church leaders because of the lack of biblical basis either way. Like many popular beliefs this likely has more to do with the writings of Dante, Hawthorn and other popular authors than actual theological teaching or religious expression.

Running For President

2007-04-11T19:47:00.000-05:00

After the growing unpopularity of President Bush the Democrats have the Presidency handed to them on a silver platter. Still they seem eager to ruin their chances. They are running Hillary Clinton who is a neo-con (socially liberal but pro-war). Even though she is no longer supportive of the war in Iraq she will never be able to satisfy hard-core dove and progressives on the left no matter what she says. This is all the more true more since you can count on the right bring up each and every instance of her early support (and that of her husband) of the Iraq war. And while she will not thrill the Democrat base she is far too liberal on social issues to have any chance of passing herself off as a moderate.

Besides Clinton the Democrats are running the smart articulate and very liberal Barack Obama. He would be a figure that the Democratic left wing could flock to and he is smart enough not to alienate the middle of the road democrats. However, he was stupid choice because for most Americans the very Arab name Obama would be problematic, even seeming like a surrender especially considering his stance on the war in Iraq. I think a sizable number of Americans believe he is a Muslim. Also because he is so liberal there is no middle of road appeal that is commonly sought after in Presidential elections. Yet in this election the stars are so aligned that provided Obama does not say anything stupid he could when even as liberal as he is.

In a election where the Democrats could be way up in the poles against the Republicans, instead Hillary is neck in neck with John McCain (who like Hillary is a neo-con but at least on with reputation for being straight forward.)

If the Democrats are smart at all they will choice to run Barack Obama instead of Hilary Clinton because Mrs. Clinton could get out the vote for the Republicans like almost nothing else could. While the right will not be appealing to the religious conservatives in this race (who never get anything they want anyway) Hilary could force them to vote because with religious people especially women Hillary is slightly less popular than Satan even if Mrs. Clinton does not like to hear so.

NY Times Mispainting

2007-03-23T21:02:00.000-05:00

Normally, I don't trouble myself to reply to anti-religious screeds but I think what makes Harold Meyerson's Op-Ed for the New York Times worthy of my attention is that his paints history with such a sloppy and careless brush. Considering the educational background that I would expect from someone writing for the New York Times I have to suspect that at least some of his writing is self deceived if not meant to purposely deceive. More troubling is that Meyersons op-ed is not really about homosexuality it is about how wrong he feels Christianity particularly Evangelical Christianity is.

He says....

Mohler's {An evangelical Meyerson is arguing against} deity, in short, is the God of Double Standards: a God who enforces the norms and fears of a world before science, a God profoundly ignorant of or resistant to the arc of American history, which is the struggle to expand the scope of the word "men" in our founding declaration that "all men are created equal." This is a God who in earlier times was invoked to defend segregation and, before that, slavery.

However, ignorant Meyerson may imagine the God of being of the arch of human history can Meyerson be so ignorant as to really believe that Christianity was the primary defending force for slavery and segregation? After all, abolition was pushed largely by religious individuals, William Wilborforce comes immediately to mind but the movement was dominated by religious groups, the Church of England, the Quakers and Meyerson's most hated Evangelicals were all major players in Abolition. And has Meyerson forgotten that science was also in earlier times invoked to defend slavery and segregation. Africans were drawn up as the missing link between men and apes, skulls were filled with marbles to show that the brain capacity of Caucasians was larger than that of 'inferior races'. Segregation was opposed also largely by churches, ever heard of Rev. Martin Luther King Jr.?

Even our founding declaration which Meyerson quotes drips with the same religious mindset he carelessly dismisses as oppressive. "... that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights,..." I don't believe the government of this country was set up to be religious in anyway but how ironic that Meyerson would accuse the Christian God of not understanding our laws at the very point in which He is evoked.

What Meyerson seems unable to understand is that religion is not a prejudice or an opinion but the most central point of the lives of millions of people, it has been the inspiration of vast good works and essential energy of most moral causes over the years. It is in the end the fundamental right of the Evangelicals to withhold approval from the behavior of certain groups regardless of how unfair Meyerson may feel it is for God to allow people to be born with the inclination toward sin.

Cheating in America

2007-03-21T20:42:00.000-05:00

While checking my email on MSN I saw an article that suggests that that most of martial problems of the United States come from the way that people in the United States get so upset over affairs. It points out that in many cultures it is considered normal for men to cheat. In the United States adultery is considered a fatal matter and Americans are more likely to confess and more likely to seek help or have a divorce over the matter. Americans are also considered less likely to cheat.

How can anyone think this is a bad thing? Can we really be suggesting as a society that what we need is more broken promises? Can we really be casual about such a massive breach of trust, certainly in societies where, cheating especially among the men, is common there is a cost in hurt and destructiveness the overcomes what we experience here in the United States. I will keep the American way of life even if we are known for a guilt. Sometimes it is right to feel guilty and there is more health in being upset about an affair than in living in a world where you are expected to accept one of life's great hurts without showing pain.

Eithopian Breadbasket

2007-02-24T12:12:00.000-05:00

While Ethiopia is best know for its famines there are some traders that believe that with open markets and with a commodities exchange Ethiopia could feed not only itself but also the surrounding parts of Africa. Already, Ethiopia produces more grain than its neighbors and even in famine years Ethiopia has always produced enough for its own people. However, without a working market very few goods make it sale and even fewer to places where they are in need. Much of this is a hang over from the Derg communist government which forbid the sale of grain across geographical areas, which exasperated the famine in the 1980's and has contributed to for sacristy problems ever since.

Even with a going market Ethiopia would still suffer from lack of roads, electric infrastructure and irrigation all of which makes Ethiopia dependent on very fickle weather. Yet, this is a start that could end the cycle of starvation that has become the norm in the horn of Africa.

A Nation's Daughters

2007-02-18T15:50:00.000-05:00

While abortion is favored in the United States in the India it is making it possible for almost an entire generation of females to never be born. In many places in India it is common for only 800 females to be born for every male. Creating a situation where targeted abortions will cause a major gender imbalance in the near future.

To combat this gender imbalance the government is starting up orphanages for girls telling families abandoning a daughter is better than killing her. So far none of these orphanages have been opened. The concern is being raised ofter a recent discovery of hundreds of female infant bones outside a hospital.

Hillary Comes

2007-01-20T19:22:00.000-05:00

Today Hillary Clinton said she is running for the White House which is something most people have known for over a year. I would much prefer Barack Obama for President and if the Democrats are wise they will not run Hillary as a candidate she would be a way to insure a massive turnout among social conservatives. Her book "It takes a Village" reads like every homeschooling families worst nightmare and calls for more government oversight of the way fa miles raise children and the more oversight for the way churches conduct charity. Yes, Hillary Clinton is a big supporter of faith based initiatives mostly as a path to government regulation of churches. She is not really that big on the First Amendment altogther.

Canadian Money

2007-01-11T06:18:00.000-05:00

The days of advanced spy tech must not be over. The U.S. security professionals have recently given a warning that tracking devices have been found in Canadian coins.

What is more puzzling than frighting is how impractical such a small tracking device would be and also what if someone spent the coin?

The African Chruch Stands-up

2007-01-08T19:06:00.000-05:00

In the United States and in Europe the Culture in side the Church is starting to look a lot like the culture outside of the Church. A growing acceptance of homosexual behaviours in society are being reflected in some of the more theologically weak of the Churches such as the Anglicans. However, what is acceptable for the general society is not what is acceptable for the body of Christ. Christianity forbids a number of things acceptable in the larger culture premarital sex, obsessive behaviours such as excessive drinking or gambling and famiously homosexuality. But if the lifestyle of the world is what a church is selling than it is not surprise that people are not buying. After all if you are going to live just like everyone else and feel just like everyone else their really is not much reason to get up on Sunday morning.

What is the case in Western Civilization is not the case in the Global South or Third World. Especially in Africa you see the church unafraid to teach and cling to traditional Christian belief that are in danger of being abandoned in the West.

It is true the Churches of the Global South have more than their own share of problems clashes with hostile neighboring Muslims and the very real struggles that go along with poverty. However, dispite these difficulties the group of people who are keeping the faith for planet Earth are not the American Middle Class but the poorest of the poor.

We should not be surprised it was the Lord who has chosen those who are the poor in the eyes of the world to be rich in faith.

Its Party Time

2007-01-07T06:29:00.000-05:00

Yesterday marked the feast of the Epiphany offically ending Christmas time on the Catholic and Orthodox callenders and being the Festival Season a time when it is ok to have parties and celebrations. It looks like the Orthodox church in Tarpon Springs, Florida celebrates this by diving. In Lousiana this marked the beggining of the festival season because in Lousiana everything is about parties.

This is the start of the Kingcake parties. Kingcake is an iced pastry ring in which a small plastic "christ child" has been barried. It is traditional in Lousiana to have parties at which King Cake is served and whomever finds the infant must hold the next party.

The Problem With Sperm

2007-01-06T19:36:00.000-05:00

What makes a father? Is it a man's relationship to a woman, his care for a child, or does it all come down to a matter of sperm. Societies view of this issue along with the rights of men will play out in ongoing Supreme Court case where a man is trying to sue for paternal rights for his sperm that was used in artificial insemination.

What I fear is that this may be part of a larger movement that will change the statis of men from providers and protectors to mere sperm donors. While men have often failed to live up to there responsiblities in society it would be an insult to real fathers to boil the act of fatherhood down to sperm donation and to give right that should belong to men who stood with and cared for their wemon to men who had seemin placed in a cup.

Sex is more than biological sperm donation, it is a major emotional and biological commitment. Fatherhood is more than sperm donation it is the craft and work of a real man.

Land of Opportunity

2007-01-03T20:39:00.000-05:00

The United States is still a place where people come to make new beginnings. A new study shows that 25% of all new technology start-ups in the United States are started by an immigrant. Yet the tough and sometimes impossible immigration laws in the United States along with the chaotic nature of the Green Card Lottery mean that many qualified and educated immigrants will in the future end up elsewhere. And gone with them are the jobs they would have created. Rather than "stealing American jobs" immigrants could easily be making "American jobs" if it legal immigration were not such a hardship. Meanwhile, for millions of both rich and poor the only path to immigration in the United States is an illegal one.

Why are we creating a situation in this country where criminals my enter but law abiding people may not? If you don't want people sneaking into your country then why is the door is locked but the window open.

The War in the Horn

2007-01-01T09:30:00.000-05:00

Well it seems there is a some good News this year as Islamic Courts that hold control of Somalia do not seem to be much a match of the Ethiopian army. I can only hope that the United States will have to integrity to support the Ethiopian army in the war which we certainly encouraged them to join.

Make no mistake the horn of Africa is a front in the war on terror and one that will need to be carefully watched. In Africa the "war on terror" is a war against oppression fueled by the fires of anarchy.

Layout

2007-01-01T09:09:00.000-05:00

I am experimenting with the look of my blog please bear with me. Suggestions are at this stage are welcome.

Cloned Food

2006-12-28T16:07:00.000-05:00

The FDA has approved cloned animals as food. I wish that people would wait a little bit longer before they begin putting recent and experimental genetic work in to the grocery.

Would you eat cloned food?

Doing What is Right

2006-12-23T20:31:00.000-05:00

In the '80's Nike got punished by the market for using child labor. Now they are leaving a source company because of the use of childlabor, however this will mean for thosands of people no way to make a living. Is it more moral to allow childlabor and give people a hope of servival or to leave a tainted market altogether?

Cat Again

2006-12-15T20:46:00.000-05:00

Some of these days you get news that just makes you feel like you are living in a bad 1960's dystopia horror flick. This is one of those days.

A cloned cat has given birth to a litter show that there is a possibility that cloned mammals can lead full lives. Knowing the cows, cats, dogs and monkeys have been successfully cloned I would find it surprising if human clones if not existing already will not exist soon.

To me this brings up status issues, who are the "parents" of cloned or genetically modified people? Should someone be able to own a patient on another persons DNA (after all some genomes are already under patent).

Yes, Franklin, the Gators are going to the Championship

2006-12-05T17:18:00.000-05:00

When I attended UF at the turn of the century Spurrier ruled the Swamp like a King. But just a few years later Zook found himself in some shoes that no one would have an easy time filling. Despite his disgraceful leave many are saying that these dramatic wins would not have been possible without the recruiting work of Ron Zook.

Still reaching the standard of Florida's traditional glory is a major accomplishment that should not be taken away from Moss.

Less the Be Thankful For

2006-12-03T19:51:00.000-05:00

The people in the Philippines however have not had an easy hurricane season at all this year. Over a 1,000 may have died from the mudslides associated with the typhoon (Asian hurricane)called Typhoon Durian. Because this was not a super-typhoon this was only the equivalent of a category one or two hurricane but it was enough to cause a massive loss of life in a venerable area.

Hurricane Thanksgiving

2006-11-30T18:07:00.000-05:00

Today is the last day of the Hurricane season and we have not had any major hurricanes. So thankfulness is in order.

No More Rolexes and French Cognac

2006-11-29T22:28:00.000-05:00

With other political options failing the United States has decided to inact trade sactions on North Korea that will with-holding such gadgets such as ipods, wine and jets skis and other luxury products. This was in a hope that these sanctions would get the attention of the pampered communist leader whose disinterest in the welfare of his people would make other forms a sanctions more painful to the common Korean people than to him. Other countries in conjunction with the UN are making up their own list of forbidding luxury items. Japan for example is holding back on high grade tuna and electronic toys (such as quality cameras).

Do you think this ban will help? Do you think that sanctions should be targeting to "punish" and irritate leaders of countries? Is this more humane?

Non-Story of the Month

2006-11-27T19:48:00.000-05:00

Black Leaders don't want people to use the N-word.

Not being able to find a real issue to latch on to Jesse Jackson is pressing to end the use of the N-word (more fearsome than blasphame). In other news the Hispanic comunity is taking objection to being called "Spiks". I guess no one likes being called names and the yahoo news is having trouble finding real stories.

Hezbollah's African Home

2006-11-15T21:35:00.000-05:00

A new report has been released that shows what many have suspected, that Somalia's new government has ties not only to Al Qaida but also to Hezbollah. It is what is to be expected after more than 14 years of anarchy even a brutal terrorist Islamic dictatorship is an improvement and welcomed by the people. Humans will chose any government no matter how brutal in exchange for peace, and this is what these groups are counting on in Iraq as well.

What is troubling to the neighboring countries of Somalia is a new government bent on expansion that to the world may be more dangerous than a Somalia of anarchy could ever be. Somalia maybe happy with just any government but its neighbors would prefer the ones they have over terrorist run regime.

Genocide Revisited

2006-11-12T19:48:00.000-05:00

To sit and watch the slaughter in Sudan is a cause for shame. Like the Holocaust was, like Rwanda was. Like Rwanda the international force is hamstrung, the African Union is not even authorized to fight, not that it would matter being as they are ill equipped and out numbered 100 to one.

There is much to learn from this though and much to gain for the people in the rich world. Sudan reveals something important about the enemies we are fighting in Iraq and are threatened by in rest of the Muslim world. The lesson is this, we are not fighting Islam, we are fighting a Arab-supremacy. The violence in Sudan is Muslim on Muslim.

You might say that Sudan is not like the Al Quada and I am comparing wrongly but Sudan disagrees. They openly say that they are like other Islamic Radicals and claim that complaints against the Janjaweed are nothing more than the result of "Zionist Propaganda".

Very often the international community can convince and control economically poorer nations with financial prizes but lately in Africa and especially in Sudan this has not been so. With China giving much longed for investment (a prize more valuable than aid money) to Sudan exchange for stripping the continent of its natural resources there is not reason for the Sudanese government to listen to Westerners short of a military confrontation.

And we can be assured that there are no nations in the either in Europe or North America willing to allow their soldiers to die for African lives. So the people of Darfur will continue to cry out but will find no help in the nations of the Earth should they be United or otherwise.

Atheism on the March

2006-11-08T20:38:00.000-05:00

In the past few years the face of American atheism has been changing. Atheists once proud of their independence tended to be solitary scoffers but in recent years they have grown far more intolerant of those they view as unenlightened and have become well much more...dare I say it ...evangelical.

In the past few weeks a number of atheist screeds have come out talking about not only the stupidity of believers and the joys of disbelief but also about the need to end religious tolerance. This is all a part of what is being called New Atheism. New atheism it seems is nothing more than old atheism with the added idea that believers are not just stupid but evil. The idea is that everyone should kick the God habit right away, not abuse childern by teaching religion to them and avoid all scientifically unsubstanicated beliefs and we will not have a happy society until people do. Only when everyone one is a freethinkers (that being someone who thinks exactly like a New Atheist) will we have peace on Earth.

This is the aha moment, everyone, secular humanism has finally stood-up without the cloak.

After getting rid of dangerous superstitions (by force if necessary), they plan to create a atheistic moral system to govern in its place. They plan to create one but have yet to really create moral system that is considered viable by any meaningful number of people. Many site the "Golden Rule" without taking care to notice that even that moral axiom is religious in nature.

While few atheistic moral structures exist today it is not because people have not tried to create them. Carl Marx who would by now be a very old atheist if he still lived, shared the New Atheist vision of giving people freedom from religion by force if necessary.

Communism created actual atheist nations. Not secular nations like the United States but actual atheist nations were no belief is the national belief and where belief in God is officially prohibited.

These nations were universally brutal, degrading of human rights, and destructive. More people died at the hands of these atheist regimes in the 20th century than died from theistic regimes in all of history.

Could it be, oh atheists, that it is not hope in a god that causes human suffering but arrogance and selfishness?

An American Legion

2006-11-01T21:16:00.000-05:00

The Foreign Legion no longer makes since for France and for France its importance has consistently been dwindling but for the United States something like that does make since.

The idea of the French Foreign Legion was that anyone could come and make a new life for themselves and end up a French citizen but first they would have to earn it, fighting. There has been times when American emigration held such a price such as during the Civil War but these days even if you were willing to fight for it the only real way to get into the United States is to sneak in.

However, if we had something like the French Foreign Legion, an American Legion in which in exchange for fighting for America abroad you could become a American citizen I am sure you would have takers. Especially, if we offered the same kind of forgiveness for past crimes that France once offered. And if we did this we would be giving American citizenship to just the sort of people that should be most welcome here in the home of the brave.

The End of Time

2006-10-28T12:59:00.000-05:00

Since I always need to be reminded I will remind everyone else. Tonight at midnight, the time space continuum will be disrupted and a hour will appear out of the void. Twice it will be midnight. I will oversleep for church but arrive 40 mins early anyway.

For mysterious reasons that the lords of the hourglass have not reveled to me , the Virgin Islands and Guam some parts of Arizona will not receive this extra hour. Maybe because they already have too much time on their hands.

Gainesville's Nightmare

2006-10-26T18:35:00.000-05:00

Around Halloween we talk about fear and nightmares but just ten years ago Gainesville lived through streak of murders that could add inspiration to even some of the bloodiest horror flicks.

The murders, five in all, left a mark on the city. Apartment complexes were renamed, the vibrant 34th Street wall held epitaphs as well as graffiti. Every raw moment had an ominous story about the time of the killings and most tragically five destinies were never fulfilled.

Today the man responsible died, executed in the town of Starke.

Non-Story of the Month

2006-10-17T20:06:00.000-05:00

Piecings are linked to Pain
After much study scientist have determined that tongue piercings can cause chronic pain in a person's tongue. Not surprisingly the condition can be cured by removing the piercing. Next, these people will be telling me standing on my feet all day is why they hurt and eating to much is how people get fat.

Do Animals Have Accents

2006-09-19T09:50:00.000-05:00

I have long heard the birds have regonal accents but just recently I read on Driving Barefoot that cows may have regional accents as well. That would make animal languages much more developed than many people had thought. I does anyone here know a cow, goat or pig with a Southern draw?

Free Speech: whenever, wherever, whatever?

2006-09-18T14:21:00.000-05:00

Wisconsin Right to Life is currently in the middle of a court battle challenging the ban on corporate ads that mention candidates 2 months before an electrion. They say that it is a violation of their right to free speech, because they want to run adds encouraging people to contact their representatives, and are not allowed to simply because that representative is running for re-election.

This is a delicate issue in my mind, because it seems that the limitation of free speech in any way is a step in the wrong direction. On the other hand, those mud-slinging adds are kind of annoying...

True Religion

2006-09-18T13:26:00.000-05:00

I can't say what Islam is all about but an Italian Nun in Somalia demonstrated with her life what Christianity is all about. She had been in Somalia for years serving the Somali people (but she had just returned from a trip to Italy). When she died she begged for her murders to be forgiven.

Some people are linking her murder to the Islamic reaction to the Pope's statements (click here to read the whole speech) others say it was just a routine killing, to me it does not matter. She was showing what martyrdom, real martyrdom is all about.

Look world and see what a martyr looks like. Martyrs are not warriors who die killing their enemies (as those who twist religion into hatred would have). Instead, martyrs are people who die with hearts full of love and forgiveness because the Spirit of God is with them. Look world and see what service to God looks like. This woman was a true martyr and a true Christian. This was an act of true religion like the Lord God wants from His followers.

No wonder the people of Somalia who knew her weep and gather in numbers, a Saint was with them but has been ripped from their arms.

The Pope is Hitler

2006-09-16T09:57:00.000-05:00

In one of his speeches the pope quoted an early Christian emperor who said that Islam brought nothing new to religion except violence and cruelty. The secular leaders of Turkey immediately compared the Pope to Hitler, losing the moral high-ground almost as soon as they had gained it. I have no doubt that the Pope should have been more careful about what he said and had it not been for what followed I surely would have said that the Pope had slandered Islam.

The Pope has been called a number of names from Zionist to Hitler but the Christians have not gone to the streets in protest, and the Christians have done no violence. Meanwhile in reaction the accusations that their religion is violent Palestinians in the West Bank firebombed churches in protest.

The Shite cleric Sheik Abdul-Kareem al-Ghazi call the Pope a Zionist, not that I understand how calling Islam violent makes one a Zionist. Actually the Catholics have traditional stood up for the Palestinians and Jordanians and have on several occasions rebuked Israel at the risk of being called Anti-Semitic but apparently in the face of a insult that counts for nothing.

"The pope and Vatican proved to be Zionists and that they are far from Christianity, which does not differ from Islam. Both religions call for forgiveness, love and brotherhood," Shiite cleric Sheik Abdul-Kareem al-Ghazi said during a sermon in Iraq's second-largest city, Basra.

Yet, for a religion that calls for forgiveness the Islamic leadership has rejected repeated apologies from the Vatican and has not been willing to talk with the Pope's ministers about the context of the statement.

Well if it is a name calling contest the Islamic leaders have won but they have done nothing to show how the Pope was mistaken. They have done more to slander the Islamic religion with their angery unforgiving actions than the Pope could ever have with even the most bitter words.

The Camel Milk Answer

2006-09-06T17:03:00.000-05:00

Mauritania, a poor North West African nation is experimenting in selling a local commodity, camel's milk, as a way a of developing their county and improving their economy. Camel's milk is hot right now because of its reputed fertility boosting abilities inspired by a Indian man's claims of having impregnated a woman in his 80's. The West may show an interest, as well, as scientist studies indicated that camel's milk can help with diabetes, food allergies, and fight general infection. It is likely this last ability that has given this milk its reputation in the Arab world as a cure for everything from upset stomach and dropsy to tuberculosis. There is even a story about how the Prophet Mohammad gave some travelers camels milk to cure their sickness (and later brutally tortured and killed them in retaliation for attacks on his shepherds).

Camel's milk tends to be hard to get to market because camels and their owners frequently live in remote places. However, a company in Mauritania, has opened a camel dairy with products such as cheese and yogurt as well as pasteurized milk. It even looks like shipping camels milk to the UK could be an option. However, when it comes to marketing camel's milk Mauritania seems to be far behind United Arab Emirates who are planning on selling camel milk chocolates(with and Austrian company) and ice cream in the near future. Camel diaries even exist in the United States however, soap not cheese is the main use for the milk.

Even if the camel milk business remains local it could have a lasting positive effect on Mauritania that needs the industry and home-grown markets even more than aid if are to get out their cycle of poverty. They are doing plenty on their own however, this could blossom to even more, if the West will lower tariffs and restrictions that would allow this country to sell their product abroad?

The Fat of the Earth

2006-09-03T18:37:00.000-05:00

A recent study reveals that for the first time in human history more people are overweight than malnourished. Many health experts view this as looming disaster but for me it begs a larger question. In a world where 1 billion people are over fed, what are we doing to help the 600 million who go to bed hungry every night. Clearly, having fewer people can not be the answer and scarcity can't be the problem.

Finding A Lost scream

2006-08-31T13:05:00.000-05:00

The officials have finally found the stolen artwork of "The Scream". I really have to wonder, what did the thief thinks he was going to do with a painting this famous. There are some artwork you can take and resell but by the time they get a certain amount famous they just become impossible to sell.

Environmental Sacrilege

2006-08-13T21:09:00.000-05:00

Al Gore has said that we are living on the brink of environmental catastrophe. Many of his strongest critics are countering that for a man who believes that the end is near, he doesn't live a very environmentally friendly lifestyle. Now, while this lowers my opinion Al Gore it does not in any way convince me that we are not in environmental danger. One hypocrite does not disprove the principle to which he pretended to adhere.

He was right that we need to conserve fuel and live less decadent lifestyles. However, he has played into the hand of the environmental skeptics with his open apostasy. If we are going to get serious about acting responsibly with this God given Earth than we better be careful who we choose as leaders. After all the skeptics are watching.

South Paw

2006-08-13T11:33:00.000-05:00

I recent study revels that left-handed people make more money.

Just Any Old Sperm

2006-08-11T17:12:00.001-05:00

Some women who have children by artificially insemination are finding that they have children with genetic disorders. While most people assume that the sperm banks screen donors, many sperm banks screen only for commonly communicable diseases and accept sperm from people with even obvious genetic defects. As in the following story from the linked AP article.

Michelle Jorgenson thought it was odd that her 8-year-old daughter Cheyenne Â conceived with sperm from a mystery man known to Jorgenson only as Donor 3066 Â was extremely sensitive to sound and walked on her toes. Jorgenson started checking on the Internet and soon learned of at least six other children around the country who were fathered by 3066. And of those seven, she discovered to her alarm, two have autism, and two others, Cheyenne included, show signs of a sensory disorder tied closely to autism.

In natural contraception many geneticic problems both minor and serious are avoided because the dating process weeds out undesirable geneticic material. The parent is sort of a perview of the child. When you pick a man or woman you are choosing some of that person's genitic combinations to exist in the future. However, with artifical insemination there is no matter of two people choosing each other and having a child. Instead, there is one individual who pays to be fertalised by random sperm. Neither genitic contributer went through the natural genetic weeding process.

Few had the wisdom to forsee how artifical insimination could create a gentically inferior off-spring by making procreation random rather than selective.

Raw Cow

2006-08-06T21:07:00.000-05:00

A fight is gearing up about whether or not people will be permitted to drink raw milk in the United States. Once again the nanny state is gearing up to play the overprotective parent. Now, I can buy and eat raw eggs(just crack them in my mouth if I want), I can eat raw or nearly raw beef, I can eat raw shellfish. Now, while all of these are risk behaviors I am permitted to assess and take those risks myself(after being warned) Not so when it comes to raw milk.

Now, I am happy that the FDA provides a standard for my food and protects me from unknown dangers within my food. However, that is a very different thing than protecting me from known dangers whether I want to be protected or not.

The no raw milk rule is why American cheese is so bland. Making certain kinds of cheese is not possible with mandated pasteurized milk. (unpasteurized milk maybe used so long as the cheese is not aged more than 60 days). The forbidden cheese can of course be ordered over the internet so long as it is not made State side and even the Raw milk is avalable (for pet use only, of course) even where I live.

The FDA, dramatically, calls unpasteurized milk 'Russian roulette' but somehow for generations people not only got by but thrived. If people are informed, I see no reason they should not be able to take those risks for themselves.

Pleading For Harry

2006-08-01T21:54:00.000-05:00

John Irving and Stephen King have been begging J.K. Rowling not to have Harry Potter die in her up coming book. The Harry Potter books are edgy and harsh in a way that I don't expect from children’s books but still the fact that a horror writer like King needs to plead with you for the life of your characters is still pretty ironic. Stranger still is the language used, “please be fair to Harry”, they say. While, Ms. Rowling books are amoral it would still a pretty terrible example to have Harry die after all this struggle and never really have a chance to be happy. After the story started like a fairy-tail should end the same way.

I don't know how Ms. Rowling plans to rap up that complicated story that she has weaved but I personally don't believe it can as complete and rich as earlier books, tie up all the loose ends and still be bound in a single volume. I think many people feared Ms. Rowling would kill Potter just to clean up the plot. Personally, I don't expect that Harry will die.

As for predictions for the final book. I expect Snape to die, and to be redeemed having proved that he was one of the good ones all along. I also expect Herminie to date Ron and or Harry (I know how obvious).

The Color Cult

2006-07-27T10:25:00.000-05:00

Driving Barefoot, a color blind commentary, recently did an article in which he said that the color purple was clearly just a result of cultural brainwashing. I know the feeling, I can't see those stupid "Magic Eye" pictures and I can relate to the feeling that everyone else in the world is just pretending to see something that is really not there.

Now how much more skeptical do you think you would be if people around you were not talking about something they saw but something they felt. Pretty skeptical, especially if people were trying to make major decisions based on this thing that you (just you it seems) can't perceive.

That is what I think it means to be an atheist. Here you have this disagreements between Christians, Jews, Muslims and frankly they are debates over the detail especially from the point of view of someone who believes there is no God. It is like people arguing about what they see in a photograph when all you see is a piece of paper. Like the color blind person who suspects that people are just pretending or crazy, the atheist assumes that religious people can not be experiencing or believing what they say they are.

So they make up conspiracy theories and extrapolate upon conceit. They become proud that they don't feel any spiritual inclination, that they are part of the small minority of the populations that does not have the same level of brain activity in the religious (or as they would say delusional) part of the brain. Many end up believing in vast plots that rival Heavens Gate in the degree of improbability. I have had supposedly scientific atheists tell me that Christianity was invented by Constantine or that other governments invented religion to brainwash the masses into submitting.

Well if I was going to invent a brainwashing program to keep the peasants in line it would not involve statements like:

He who oppresses the poor shows contempt for their Maker, but whoever is kind to the needy honors God.
So when Jesus heard these things, He said to him, "You still lack one thing. Sell all that you have and distribute to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me."

Also, atheists tend to build up a lot of pride in their atheism. With so many people apparently under the effect of powerful brainwashing they take great pride in being one of only a few clear or "free thinkers". This means that often when atheist do have religious experiences they tend not to talk about it for fear that they would be viewed as one of the superstitious fools they criticize.

Atheist have generally be encouraged, of course, by the large number of people who do believe in and acknowledge that there is a God but because they would like to do things they know God does not approve of so they say, "maybe there is not a god, then it would not be a problem if I....". I have a friend who is an insane procrastinator and when I tell him he needs to do something or he will run out of time, he replies "I don't believe in time."

I suppose the someone in debt could stop believing in money, after all nothing gives that paper value but faith, anyway. However, like the atheist they would still have to deal with the consequences of the something that is very real even if they did not believe it was there.

Unlucky Days

2006-07-24T00:13:00.000-05:00

The American Spectator has an interesting article in which it explains the Israeli/Lebanon crisis through by saying that this is just an unlucky time of the year for Jews.

It is really very interesting, please read.

The Cheating Agency

2006-07-23T17:06:00.000-05:00

The Ashley Madison Agency is a dating site for adultors, or as the less judgemental language of the Agency goes "extra-pair copulations" (not just for people cheating on their sposes cheating on girlfriends is incurraged as well) It is a one stop website where potintial adultures can find some one to cheat with, justifications for their betrayal and ways to hide their actions all at one neat location.

The articles on the site stress arguements that I am sure you heard used by childern to covence you to jump off a bridge or get in a fight. Everyone, according to Ashely Madison Agency, is doing it and it is fun.

What is not discussed is the reality of betraying some one who loves you and the effect that has ones whole family. However, according to Ashely Madison Agency, nothing must stand in a persons way of finding the best mate possible, a genitic mandate.

While the website stresses that EPSes are not about sex the fact remains that without sex it is not adultry. No one is going to fault you for talking to a friend.

Naturally this company is from Canida the hope off the 90 degree slippery slope.

Patent Pending

2006-07-21T22:45:00.000-05:00

Michael Crichton (author of Jurassic Park) has written an interesting article on the bizarre and freighting phenomenon of intellectual patenting which allows companies and individuals to patent not only processes and inventions but scientific truths. This is just the legal grasping that is lampooned by Help Desk ,an online comic but I feel this article reminded me of the down to earth dangers of such vain intellectual imperialism.

Maybe I should patent the concept of intellectual imperialism. Or maybe just the concept of imperialism.

The Ethiopian Defense

2006-07-19T20:23:00.000-05:00

It looks like Ethiopia will help Somalia's marginal UN backed government against the Islamic Al-Qaida back invaders. Somalia could become the next base for Al-Qaida terrorists even while the world's back is turned.

God Bless You.

2006-07-19T13:13:00.000-05:00

Ipso Facto takes on religon pushing theocrats.

New at the Grocery CBS Egg-vertisements

2006-07-18T21:58:00.000-05:00

CBS is printing advertisements on eggs, appearing now in your neighborhood grocer. How weird is that? The Gaggle cartoon does a decent lampoon. Check it out.

As Typical As a Polish Priest

2006-07-18T10:01:00.000-05:00

What do you call a Polish man in Spain? Padre.

What do you say when you see a Pole in New York? I am coming to Mass this week, I swear.

While most of Europe in religious decline, Poland is producing and even exporting Priests. Poland is considered one of the poorest countries of Europe but it is the rich faith of Poland that is helping to hold-up the Catholic Church throughout Europe.

Much like South America to the United States Poland is providing a refreshing drought of new believers to a parched and cynical continent. I can only pray that their numbers grow.

It is not surprising from the Christian point of view that apostasy and atheism grow among the rich. Often in the Bible it is those without riches who have the riches of God. After all it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of needle than a rich man to go to heaven.

In Neglected Corners of Earth

2006-07-17T22:55:00.000-05:00

evil forms and goes unnoticed.

Like the Afgans before them the Somalis have found themselves war weary and desperate just as Islamic Arab Supremacists inter their country. Like the Afgans I imagine that the order offered by these groups (regardless of how harsh) is likely to be embraced by these people who are completely tired of chaos. It testify to this the Arab Supremacist in Somalia have been able to open Islamic courts even in villages that they don't control. It would be unwise to understate the power these courts could have in a part of the world that desperately craves law and order.

Somalia could easily become the new seat of those who threaten American security because only terrorists were willing to offer Somalia a chance to feel safe.

The Liturgy of Social Capital

2006-07-17T22:10:00.000-05:00

Richard W. Garnett mourns the closing of Catholic Churches and schools in large metropolitan areas around the country. Garnett argues that churches provide social capital or a way for people in the community to work together to take care of the community improving it. Like many social scientists Garnett believes in the Bowling Alone theory which states that without social connectedness society becomes weak dependent and eventually crumbles.

Churches in general have traditional promoted social capital not only by providing connectedness and safety-nets but encouraging people to reach out to each other outside of the church context and to maintain traditional family structures.

It is an interesting secular defense of the role of the churches in society. It includes an appeal not to over burden the churches for we could very well lose them. Of course, the people who try to place undue legal burdens on churches do want them to close because of the God they teach about does not approve of their behavior. Ultimately, however Christianity will show its native durability and will survive secular attacks even if it must become less helpful to society to do so.

I wonder if we are approaching a time of great loneliness in which are people are isolated from family, friends and in the ultimate aloneness cut off from God.

Will America Help Lebanon?

2006-07-15T12:40:00.000-05:00

One of the most interesting parts of the Israeli/Lebanese conflict is how the nation of Lebanon is reaching out to the United States for help. In the States they will find some sympathy for their young nation which has just now come out from the control of Syria. However, as long as Hezbollah is a legal organization (even a part of the Lebanese government) how can we interfere when Israel moves to defend themselves. If the Democratic Caucus went to Mexico City and abducted members of the Mexican army no one would be surprised if the Mexican government's retaliated. By the same token it is not surprising that Israel retaliated even if the extent of the retaliation is shocking.

While Israel may be justified it is not wise. The currant government of Lebanon is more friendly than any Israel has ever seen. By utterly undermining this government's ability to rule, Israel is pretty much guaranteeing a hostile Lebanese state and may even cause Lebanon to return to being a Syrian protectorate.

Palms and Cedars

2006-07-14T23:27:00.000-05:00

When Israel launched its recent retaliatory attack on Lebanon, I was wary in posting on the topic. Seeing Lebanon finally at peace after all these years I did not want to believe that they are the real aggressors in the conflict. Especially after the more recent elections that seemed to rob power from the Syrian puppet government and establish a government that could work with the West and maybe even Israel.

However after watching the P.M. of Lebanon make excuse after excuse for what Hezbollah did and never condemn there actions it is clear that Lebanon allowed and sanctioned this attack on Israel and that the Israeli government is right is considering this an act of war. Even so, I would have hoped that they could have taken an eye for an eye instead of making open war. Now the conflict threatens to grow and I wonder if we will not see this spread throughout the Middle East. If it does spread the United States will be forced to be involved.